I'm giving up.

[GarlicShake]

This is more of a despairing rant than an invitation to reply. Sorry! I feel like I've nowhere else to put it.

I am 61 years old. I'm facing ageism & ableism as well as sexism. I have a corner to fight.

I went on strike for maternity rights, for equal pay, even for the factory to have a women's toilet. I forged a career in a world that was predominantly male, argued for my pay rises and trained younger people up to be non-sexist. I've been blamed and misconstrued, beaten up, raped, and carefully answered the gamut of sexist assumptions. I battled for my pension rights and I threatened the bank with legal action when they refused to take my salary into account on my first mortgage. I am still fighting.

But I just can't hack fighting for younger women any more. They're throwing away all that we, and the two generations before and the one after mine, won for them. I can't even tell whether they don't give a shit or they think all their rights are safe so they needn't bother.

I'm not going to argue the transgender thing any more. I'll stick to supporting the handful of FB friends who get it, but I'm not arguing in my own voice from now. I'm giving up on explaining why "Ms" matters - it's been around for 50 years, for crying out loud! People can figure out why the Nordic model's a better idea for themselves - or, most likely, not. Women can congratulate themselves on being financially dependent on husbands, and figure that out for themselves too.

And I think this country's going to vote itself out of Europe. That'll wake a few people up in short order, I fear, but I shall be needed to stick up for older & disabled people like me as our rights will get shredded. I am tired.

I am very tired and disappointed. Thank you for all the brilliant discussions, MN feminists! Good luck.

There are so many utterly brilliant posts here already 💛 💚 💜 💙 You've made me feel quite soppy - and optimistic!

The dreaded MN Feminists have taught me so much, and clarified so many of my thoughts, that I'll be pleased if I've managed to give back even a half of it. Mumsnet is a rare bastion of rational thought - amongst all the wafflings of the unwarily oppressed, and better for them I think.

I think the denial is my generation's fight actually. - This is a very good point, Buffy. It does perhaps explain my disillusionment. Now you mention it, I guess it is an inevitable stage in the spiral of advancement & backlash. It needs addressing each time. I'm not sure young women generally pay much attention to old women but perhaps I'll end up radicalising some fellow oldies, who knows?!

I agree it's past time for more men to back feminism (preferably 'cis het' men for maximum effectiveness.) Feminism's aim is equality between the sexes. There are significant benefits to men in it, and it does look to me that more younger men are gradually getting it.

Oliviaclottedcream, you renounced any credibility when you tried to take the piss out of 'the patriarchy'

crazycatdad would you argue that the civil rights movement ought to be 'inclusive' of white people? Or the various disability activity groups ought to be 'inclusive' of the able bodied?

Absolutely, yes, and for the same reason - not being a member of the group in question doesn't preclude one from identifying and empathising with the issues at hand. I don't think that necessarily implies any reprioritising of the agenda either.

Cases where one group of activists are co-opting an agenda and conflating disparate issues to gain validity and political ground are obviously problematic (case in point, trans activism).

CoteDAzur ah I misunderstood you then, and I agree. Though now I think about it, I don't recall seeing many trans women speaking up in favour of feminism, which makes me wonder how many really care and many pick and choose issues as a vehicle for their own agenda.

So much depends on your life experience, and most younger people haven't had much yet. So when I was early twenties, having attended a grammar school and studied engineering at a russel group uni I started work in engineering and was genuinely accepted as an equal to male peers - both personally and professionally. We had a lot of women in senior roles and I was very lucky - I didn't need feminism because I hadn't directly experienced much sexism (that I'd noticed).

It wasn't until I switched to teaching and my friends started getting married and having kids (late 20s) that I actually realised how many women were treated differently just because they were women. That's when I decided I was a feminist, though tbf given the definitions I suppose I always have been one.

What I'm trying to say (in a very convoluted way) is that there was a period of time when I was part of a privileged few who not only hadn't experienced significant sexism, I didn't actually even know anyone of my generation who had. So yeah, I thought we didn't need feminism - partly due to ignorance, partly due to "I'm alright, Jack" but partly because the previous generation's feminism had achieved so much.

Surely that's the goal though - to advance women's rights to a point where the next generation of women won't need feminism anymore. That's my personal aim anyway.

finallydelurking - I'd be really interested to hear more about your experience.

you say you didn't see the problem with pink etc. I have a male friend who couldn't see it either. Now he has a god-daughter, he has said to me "I'm sorry I minimised your concerns - I'm stunned at the crap that is marketed for girls' gifts".

He also has a nephew so now he is really seeing the contrast.

a lot of what is said here resonates with me and I really struggle with the obsession with looks. I feel I'm giving in to it to some extent but when colleagues are presenting themselves with very high grooming standards, suddenly what was fine looks unsmart.

PS I am not a makeup user but I am getting to the point where I feel a normal workplace doesn't really know what an un-madeup face looks like.

I'm sure you'd never dream of doing that though, right?

I'd have no qualms saying those things to individuals if it was warranted, but no, I wouldn't try to address an entire movement in that manner.

If it's any consolation I have become able to declare myself a feminist since coming on MN. Big deal you cry
Don't despair, Garlic you're just a bit weary. I remember being a Trade Union rep when I was a SALT. We went up to Parliament to fight for higher pay and equality with other health professionals. Then things got better but I felt that the younger therapists didn't give a shit about our campaigning. There isn't so much idealism as there was in the '60s 70s and even 80s. The Thatcher/Blair ethos was every man and woman for themselves.
I retrained at 40 and the female students were incredibly cut throat. Not much sign of the sisterhood there. As for the obsession with appearance and focus on celebrities Aaaaaagh! You may try to blame this on 'patriarchy' but I think it's a warped type of ambition.

Any way I've learned a lot on here from posters on here like you. For example that trans women are men who want to grab special rights. The use of vocabulary to enhance the status of people who want to be seen as women but special women who have their own special facilities and no one must criticise them ever.
What you are bemoaning is selfishness and lack of gratitude and you're absolutely right. I know this is an illogical rambling post by the way.

lorelei understand what you mean re gifts for kids. We recently had DS1 but didn't find out the sex until birth, so we've been getting lots of that kind of thing off relatives. One relative gave a lovely giraffe rocking horse with the comment, "They had dinosaur ones but we couldn't get one of them since we didn't know if it was a girl or boy". Cue DW and I banging heads off the wall. It really was lovely but, whether a girl or boy, a T-Rex rocking horse would have been SO FREAKING COOL.

lorelei I still don't have an issue with pink. I wasn't allowed anything pink and sparkly that I wanted as a child by my dad who also wouldn't allow my Mum to wear make-up. I heavily rebelled against this. I grew up during and began having children in the 90's lad culture. I always let my daughters go about in their Disney princess dresses and sparkly shoes. They also liked trains and dinosaurs, the dinosaurs too had pink sparkly dresses As teens they tell me I am a twat for never going out unless I'm done up (in a very good natured way). My older two are now studying science subjects and have very similar opinions on the trans issue to this board. I've seen girls who grew up with them who weren't allowed pink go heavily down the 'duckface' route. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think pink should be vilified, but I don't think it should be forced on girls as their only option either. I guess I'm probably attempting to express a similar view to buffy, but I'm not as articulate.

And who decides if a feminist hasn't been clear or critical enough in her thinking to warrant your intervention? Would that be you?

I generally make that decision about everything I say, so yes. Not sure what point you are trying to make.

crazy, I'm mystified by this - apart from anything else, find me anyone who wouldn't love a dino rocking horse!

Finally - I think part of the problem is that unless we do a bit of anti-pink, some people will represent only pink to girls.

A pp - Muskateersmummy - was saying (I will paraphrase) something about traditinal choices being undermined in feminism. I was lost from feminism at some point in my early 30s because I felt it was all about motherhood so that's interesting.

crazycatdad presumably if your not an expert on a topic you have sense to not venture forth as an authority? Gender politics do affect all of us (man or woman) thus we all tend to have opinions on it, but the analysis can get quite in depth and detailed and seeing as feminism views the topic from a woman's perspective there are a hell of a lot of pitfalls men can fall into when engaging with it even with good intentions.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think pink should be vilified,

Of course not. It is just a colour. It is just a symbol of everything that's wrong - the way toys for girls are designed to make them roleplay housewives, (or worse, brainless shopping zombies), discourage their creativity, etc. And the way clothes for girls are designed to hinder movement.

Someone should start a business selling sensible toys that are painted pink, but nothing else changed. That would make it easier to find toys for girls who are conditioned to love pink, but are not wholly brainwashed yet.

I get the feeling of utter despair and I'm 35! I actually find coming to lurk on MN Femism Chat is usually a boost - I love reading the opinions of those better read, more experienced and so brilliantly clear of thought. They help me work my way around issues and get my thinking straight. I think we need those voices and we're going to need them even more so in the near future.

I think feminism is shunned in subtle ways. I see a lot of it on here. The debate about keeping one's child off sick springs to mind. Working women still see themselves as the main childcare, whether they work or not and they still feel they have a point to prove to employers as viable employees and so shouldn't request flexibility and yet flexibility is sometimes required from all walks of life for a multitude of reasons. The fact that the thread was deleted speaks volumes as to how our attitudes are polarised even amongst ourselves, never mind bringing men into the equation.

Precisely, Derval, I lurk and read a lot but hope that I keep out of discussions which require extensive experience of being female to form a sensible opinion on, or really anything on which I am uninformed. I would hope to be called out when I overstep that.

I am disappointed with the current modern feminism. Too many people seem to be scared of words, not enough people are willing to get out from behind their computers and actually do something. When I see the complaint about STEM from people who could of taken those degrees but instead chose Gender Studies, if DD can do it so can anyone with a modicum of intelligence and a willingness to do rather than talk. I had a career but elected to stay at home for my children. I now give 30 hours a week to charity one being FGM, the other fair trade and how to include women in the distribution of funds from fair trade contracts. What annoys me is how few people are willing to even give 5 hours a week.

We will disagree over sex work, the more I read from Amnesty and WHO the more I doubt that the Nordic model is the best to protect women. But I remember seeing strippers being called Gender Traitors on these boards about 4 years ago and that stuck with me how we can slut shame and ignore whole sections of people who choose to work in various sex trades. It is too easy to pretend that the loud voices are some pimp lobby that spends billions defending the trade. The truth is we have become intellectually dishonest, from believing that the average age of when women enter prostitution is 13 (in fact the research only interviewed under 16s so the answer was never going to be higher than 16) to the claim that the average street worker dies around age 34 which was based only on murder victims and does not include anyone who is/was alive when the study was done. If we have to bend the facts to create a truth then the truth no longer holds value for me.

A pp - Muskateersmummy - was saying (I will paraphrase) something about traditinal choices being undermined in feminism. I was lost from feminism at some point in my early 30s because I felt it was all about motherhood so that's interesting

There are a dozen different subgroups of feminism (though one could argue that not all of those are actually feminist), and it is probably possible that in the age before the internet, people's views of feminism were highly coloured by people they knew and books they had read.

Did you feel that it was all about motherhood because all feminists you knew were mothers? Or was it because it was all about protecting mothers from losing their jobs, etc?

I don't have children, and I still think motherhood is a feminist issue, because whether you want children or not, you will be discriminated against in the workplace because of the assumption that you might get pregnant at some point in time.

The fact that women CAN have children enables the males in power to direct sexist discrimination at us without outright stating that the purpose is to oppress women. Terrible working conditions for midwives? Just a part of the medical sector, nothing to do with HALF OF THE POPULATION being put at risk. Making abortions illegal? Nuns don't need them, so, not misogynist!

Reproduction is where patriarchal oppression starts and ends, it is central.

all i will say on the transgender issue in feminism, is that since my friend transitioned (full GRS) and moved job, she has been subject to EXACTLY the same kind of discrimination as every other female co-worker.

There isn't some kind of special ticket on her employment record that says 'used to be a man' that gets her privileged treatment.. like the higher rate of pay, or more promotion opportunities.

Once they go through transition and live as a woman, they are then just as much at risk of misogyny as those of us who are 'cis' for want of a better word.

Maddy, I know trans* women who are formidable feminists, having been enlightened by their experiences in a misogynist society and within the trans communities. I see them as having suffered a triple whammy, and go out of my way to support them.This is no way dilutes my alarm at the TW movement's successes in eroding women's rights & freedoms. Interestingly (and logically,) they share my discomfort.

Garlick: I am "even" older than you and I thoroughly agree with you.

I was a teen in the 1950s so had to say "fuck it" to the housewife mentality, in the 60s I had to say double fuck it to the "you can't do this, you can't do that" mentality, in the 70s I said triple fuck it to the "you need a male guarantor for this and for that" mentality and so it went. Even with sex, once the Pill was available, and therefore boys/men thought the default response was yes to sex and gave you hell if it wasn't. My generation built on the work of the suffragettes and suffragists and like to think we had dragged society kicking and screaming into the modern age - at no little personal cost sometimes.

Oh, and I never fell for the lie that left wing meant gender equality. It never did. It still doesn't. Too much of a hive mentality.

I am so disappointed with the attitude of many of today's girls and young women and especially to standing up for themselves when it comes to sex. Some simply seem unable to accept that sometimes you need to make decisions that will make you unpopular and subject you to name-calling and lots of nasty reactions. Yes, the pressures are more extreme around sex, but I would argue no more extreme than the pressures our generation faced around marriage, work, careers, education, the home etc.

Sometimes you simply have to metaphorically stamp you feet and tell the world you don't give a shiny shit what they think.

I hesitate to say this because I know how quick the mantra of victim blaming arises as a response to criticism of women. I know I am generalising (nawalt) but I honestly believe that my generation of women - born and raised in or just after the war - was a hell of a lot tougher than than today's.

I would like to see a rebirth of that fuck it mentality. And one place to start is with this "non women" asinine crap. If you get called a TERF so what?

Do you see the problem?

I do see the problem, so to be clear I don't view a feminist discussion that contains only women as lacking anything. My manner can be direct/blunt I guess, which could be taken as condescending, but that is never my intention. Unless it is.

(As an aside, and not taking a dig at anyone, and yes the suspicion is entirely understandable, but it would pretty neat if men could chime in without having to make the above clarification on a regular basis)