I'm giving up.

[GarlicShake]

This is more of a despairing rant than an invitation to reply. Sorry! I feel like I've nowhere else to put it.

I am 61 years old. I'm facing ageism & ableism as well as sexism. I have a corner to fight.

I went on strike for maternity rights, for equal pay, even for the factory to have a women's toilet. I forged a career in a world that was predominantly male, argued for my pay rises and trained younger people up to be non-sexist. I've been blamed and misconstrued, beaten up, raped, and carefully answered the gamut of sexist assumptions. I battled for my pension rights and I threatened the bank with legal action when they refused to take my salary into account on my first mortgage. I am still fighting.

But I just can't hack fighting for younger women any more. They're throwing away all that we, and the two generations before and the one after mine, won for them. I can't even tell whether they don't give a shit or they think all their rights are safe so they needn't bother.

I'm not going to argue the transgender thing any more. I'll stick to supporting the handful of FB friends who get it, but I'm not arguing in my own voice from now. I'm giving up on explaining why "Ms" matters - it's been around for 50 years, for crying out loud! People can figure out why the Nordic model's a better idea for themselves - or, most likely, not. Women can congratulate themselves on being financially dependent on husbands, and figure that out for themselves too.

And I think this country's going to vote itself out of Europe. That'll wake a few people up in short order, I fear, but I shall be needed to stick up for older & disabled people like me as our rights will get shredded. I am tired.

I am very tired and disappointed. Thank you for all the brilliant discussions, MN feminists! Good luck.

I'm one of those thousands, mentioned above, who rarely post, but read every post and follow up links.
I'm almost sure that if it weren't for the more knowledgeable posters on here, I would have just gone along with things that I've come to realise are actually unacceptable to me. This board is an invaluable source of inspiration/encouragement to me in my day to day 'fight'.

I was v. disappointed, a week ago, to be told by a fellow single mother (of daughters) that I am wasting my time, as we're all equal now; that any woman can do anything she wants to do and the only thing stopping them is negative people, like me, telling them they can't!

On a more positive note, my 21y old DS regularly challenges sexist shit on FB, and in RL. Interestingly, he straightaway recognised the transactivist misogyny, whereas the friend mentioned above who is in her 30s, feels no need to look beyond the surface.
So, there is hope. And many, many of us truly appreciate just how much harder our lives would be, were it not for the OP and others like her.

Younger women are having to forge their way in a world moulded by extreme porn violence and even more warped young men and social media to boot in general, i find your generalistation of us young women very offence actually every generation faces issues. The trans issue i dont know enough about.

That's ok slugs. I would hate anyone to thick I was kicking garlic when she was down. Don't lose hope. We do see and we do appreciate.

Actually I was aiming that post at AnyFucker. Your's slugs was slightly less intolerant.

Buffy, well said!

Great post, Buffy.

Garlic, do you have a copy of Backlash? I am just remembering the introduction where she talks about the history of feminism being like a slanty corkscrew - it twists around through ups and downs but ends up a bit better after each cycle. Obviously there are a lot of assumptions there and maybe she's wrong, but I think at least its a reassuring reminder that you/we won't be the first generation of feminists to have felt like this.

Otherwise, hugs and

I too am another one who's lurked for a long, long time and I've always liked your posts buffy. I too have made life choices in a 50's style, however I do appreciate the fact that feminism gave me the right choose. Please, please don't flame me and throw me off the board for saying so, but I have never been involved in feminism because of being looked down on in RL by woman who identify as feminist. While I don't understand a lot of the academia behind it or a lot of the academic posts made, I like this board and have a read a lot of opinions on here that I similar to what I am coming to believe because of the life experiences my daughters have had. Please let me stay and please keep posting because I have to believe that their are others like me, lurking and listening.

You do have the right to choose, however, if your choices are damaging to women as a whole hint: being a SAHM isn't this , then other women have the right to choose to call bullshit. Women's choices don't happen in a vacuum, no matter how much some women want it to be so.

Yeah, making yourself financially dependent on a man (which most SAHMs are) is very risky and I would not recommend it, but it doesn't harm other women.

In fact, feminism has fought for the typical wifework to be recognized as work, (not that we are there yet) so I am frequently confused as to why women think it is feminism that devalues and belittles unpaid work inside the home, when it is actually patriarchy that does this.

It is somewhat similar with the whole "whorephobia" nonsense. Feminists don't hate prostituted women, we just think it's not good for them to stay in a situation where men hate them, harm them and frequently murder them.

A typical "shoot the messenger" reaction ...

"some of the newer arguments within feminism though can be seen to be discriminatory and exclusionary"

I would like to understand why feminism ( = advocacy of the rights of human females) has to be inclusive of adult human males, regardless of their gender or lack thereof.

My personal opinion is that there's a complex mess of internalised sexism, ageism and backlash. When we're younger, it's easier to be 'cool' and not fussed about all that stuff that older women keep talking about, because generally men and male dominated society approved of our physical attractiveness, youth and lack of power. Older women are much happier to look at the criteria for male approval and think 'fuck that' so the influence of older women has to be diminished somehow. It's already going with the grain to ignore older women, because older women aren't so pretty and pliable anyway, so they're (we're) already less likely to be approved of.

This, oh so much this. I see the younger women at work and they reject feminism, because currently they are 'the favoured ones' They don't see a problem.

They have bought in totally to the objectification of women and instead of railing against it, rail against each other for not coming up to standard.
If I hear one more comment from them about how "so and so looks a state because she hasn't had her fake tan/nails/lost weight/curly blow * done(delete as necessary). I swear to god I will slam their fake lipped duck faces together until they stick. Now they are bringing up a new generation of girls who are 'mummys little princess' who's only goal in life is to be pink and sparkly and fluffy and to do pouty duck face at the age of 3 (I shit you not) and be told how gawjus she is...

It makes me want to throw the towel in too.

Thanks buffy that was a really useful post, I will be adding it to my arsenal of arguments to use next time I have to storm down the school in my heels and fake tan and complain about their failure to challenge misogynistic attitudes, objectification and rape culture.

meddie a lot of your post resonated with me too

Meddie I always dressed my girls in pink and allowed them to play with make up and Disney princesses and didn't see what peoples problem was with it. Until my older two went through Prom don't get me started on what I think about that americanised shit how I heard woman talking to their daughters in the dress shops about losing weight and how much work needed to be done on their appearances and the mothers desperation for their daughters to have a date for the event. Wow. Just wow.

I would like to understand why feminism ( = advocacy of the rights of human females) has to be inclusive of adult human males, regardless of their gender or lack thereof.

I would say it's because a capacity for critical thought and a sense of fairness are more relevant to the task of advocating for equality than simply possessing ovaries but then I am obviously not impartial on the subject.

Meddie, yes. Even if you've been a feminist from an early age, it's a shock how the world treats you differently when you aren't young and pretty anymore. It wasn't a massive deal for me- I was quite pretty but not a "stunner" and how I looked wasn't something I obsessed about when I was young - but for the hyper-groomed young women I see it's going to be worse. My 28 year old sister in law and her friends are talking about Botox ffs..

"a capacity for critical thought and a sense of fairness are more relevant to the task of advocating for equality"

Sure, males can be feminists. Nobody is saying that men can't advocate for women's rights.

What I am saying is that feminism isn't about males, even if those males want to be called "she".

So again: Feminism = Advocacy of the rights of human females. Why does it have to be "inclusive" of males?

Another one here who took a depressingly long time to appreciate the continued need for feminism. I too remember saying embarrassingly stupid things about it as a young woman (I'm 44). Lurking on the MN feminism board has taught me a great deal.
I realise it must be very depressing for you to hear and read ignorant comments from young women, but the intelligent, rational and thoughtful posts on here (especially those posted by some of the wise and knowledgeable stalwarts of the MN feminism board) must at least help to bring some to their senses. I definitely experienced that 'waking up to the Matrix' feeling when I first started realising the staggering amount of everyday sexism that still goes on.

delurking I don't know where you have come across feminists before but if you use this board regularly you will see that the status of a SAHP is not sneered at but felt to be one that needs fully acknowledging

it isn't feminists that devalue it, not my flavour of feminism anyway

Im in my mid 20's , 2 boys and work in a very female dominated area, if someone says to me they dont identify as feminist because they wear bras or something else silly then i point out to them that free contraception , access to refuges are all there due to feminism, im sure there are some daft women my age but not all dont tar us all with the same brush, you all have a lot more life experience then someone my age.

I've come across it too, though I prefer to think of myself as a carer rather than a sahm, though the name changing poster just seems to hate the disabled and carers anyway but the last time I posted this my post went poof! As if by magic

anyfucker I know it isn't feminists that devalue it and I know it's not this board. I have been sneered at by woman though who claim to be feminists. I think they're misogynists not feminists though especially given the behaviour of their sons I am really not here to cause offence, I'm reading and learning with ever increasing interest.