I'm giving up.

[GarlicShake]

This is more of a despairing rant than an invitation to reply. Sorry! I feel like I've nowhere else to put it.

I am 61 years old. I'm facing ageism & ableism as well as sexism. I have a corner to fight.

I went on strike for maternity rights, for equal pay, even for the factory to have a women's toilet. I forged a career in a world that was predominantly male, argued for my pay rises and trained younger people up to be non-sexist. I've been blamed and misconstrued, beaten up, raped, and carefully answered the gamut of sexist assumptions. I battled for my pension rights and I threatened the bank with legal action when they refused to take my salary into account on my first mortgage. I am still fighting.

But I just can't hack fighting for younger women any more. They're throwing away all that we, and the two generations before and the one after mine, won for them. I can't even tell whether they don't give a shit or they think all their rights are safe so they needn't bother.

I'm not going to argue the transgender thing any more. I'll stick to supporting the handful of FB friends who get it, but I'm not arguing in my own voice from now. I'm giving up on explaining why "Ms" matters - it's been around for 50 years, for crying out loud! People can figure out why the Nordic model's a better idea for themselves - or, most likely, not. Women can congratulate themselves on being financially dependent on husbands, and figure that out for themselves too.

And I think this country's going to vote itself out of Europe. That'll wake a few people up in short order, I fear, but I shall be needed to stick up for older & disabled people like me as our rights will get shredded. I am tired.

I am very tired and disappointed. Thank you for all the brilliant discussions, MN feminists! Good luck.

I am 60 & feel exactly the same as you, Garlic.

Why the fuck did we bother?

I know what you mean, it is frustrating and upsetting. But women like you are needed and your contribution on mn is valued.

Biological women get pregnant Mycrispbag. I don't care how someone wants to present themselves and will use their desired pronoun out of courtesy, but you're not going to thoughtcrime me into talking about "pregnant men".

People born into a world of rights and privilege are almost never aware of the struggles that went before them. This is true of feminism and just about every other social justice movement in history. It is frustrating when you see it happening. But the trick is, I think, to step back, take a deep breath and go again when you feel refreshed.

I do think some of the newer arguments within feminism though can be seen to be discriminatory and exclusionary, even if to your eyes they are not. Again, if you are born into rights and privilege, most people with an ounce of humanity want to reach out and help groups that they see as oppressed and excluded.

I think that whilst I appreciate the need for feminism to give us all those things mentioned, the reason women like myself struggle to identify with being a feminist is that for me all of those things were to give us the right to choose. But in many of the conversations I see with feminists, If the woman makes the "wrong" choices, she is letting the sisterhood down. That very aggressive stance makes it hard to identify with. I'm very much about equality for everyone to choose, but personally choose pretty traditional roles for myself. Feminism doesn't feel very accepting of women wanting to take a more traditional role for themselves

Though I am generally more optimistic than Garlic (see my previous posts), reading yesterday's FB posts by a Green Party Non-Male representative who earnestly lists "Agender, Gender Fluid, Bigender, Gender Nonconforming, Gender Questioning, Genderqueer, Gender Variant, Non Binary and Two Spirit" as gender possibilities does make me want to lock myself into a darkened room with a bottle of single malt and a pistol.

Well said Muskateersmummy. Excellent points..

I just despair.

I don't know how to start thinking about how to combat this kind of thing. I just thought about the trend for no platforming for a few seconds and wanted to smash my face off the table.

Who are these cretins and how did they end up so utterly brainless?

It's like anything anyone says is automatically valid, unless it offends someone.

They have grow used to such privilege that they think the only thing left to fight is offence.

I agree Grimarse and historically the feminist movement has been allied with the gay rights movement for example. I can understand why younger feminists just take on the trans narrative unquestioningly and see it as something similar. But when it gets to the stage where I'm pointing out the tragedy of the Olympics Committee decision to someone who retorts with "Transwomen are women. How dare you say they aren't" without addressing a single point that I've made and refusing to engage, then I despair at the total lack of critical thinking. I do not see the aggressive adherents of the trans narrative as vulnerable in the slightest, not when they've gained such rapid and alarming ground in "privileged" women's discursive and actual space. And the feminists who blindly go along with this - useful idiots comes to mind.

Garlic my heart sank a little bit further when I saw the "non-men" thing too

Also the widespread support in recent years for likes of the rapist Evans and sexual groomer Johnson has been depressing me mightily

And lots of other stuff. Sometimes it gets too much. Look after your health for a while, step off the treadmill and have a break from it. x

Muskateer and olivia go away, you are quite tiresome to bring your issues to this thread. You are also part of the problem. The "I'm alright Jack" mentality is sounding a bum note right now.

The non men thing annoyed me too and lots of my life choices aren't particularly feminist (I don't work for example atm) Are men non women? oh no they are just still fucking Men

Well yes, and thank you slugs that really proves my point -- I'm very sorry to say. Opinions like yours seem to be the ones that prevail and that's why so many women, who are coming from a more moderate perspective are steering clear.

Garlic - Thank you for helping to pave the way for change to benefit women.

I agree with Destinysdaughter first post.

Personally I think it is counterproductive to blame the ignorant. Look at the influences surrounding the younger generation. Can the frustration be directed at media outlets, the PM, local MP's?

I was fortunate that my mum and her partner planted the seeds in my mind. When I embarked on adulthood I was (and probably still am) ignorant to many inequalities. Women like you and many others on this board have helped to open my eyes. I go away and reflect and to understand their POV but I still have the right to choose if I share the same opinion or not.

My concern with so many responses on this thread of wanting to give up, to not debate with younger ignorant people is counterproductive . Believe it or not there are thousands reading who do not post and you might be helping those people become aware of their choice/rights.

It's a shame to see some posts slating the ignorant or not being able to argue with stupid. I personally think that gives this board a bad rap. Those that have this knowledge can share with clear clean facts to back up any argument, do it! You might be bored of defending you corner or repeating yourself but I thought this was a board for discussion. To be challenged and to therefore debate. The ignorant will go away to either reflect or get bored and stop posting.

Just remember these boards are representing feminists so it's a real disservice to publicly call others stupid, what if the women before us gave up. I'm sure they faced the same struggles if not worst.

I hope you're feeling better today. Please do not stop educating and sharing. The people on your FB group surely do not teaching?

Apologies if my post was seen to be a kick whilst you're down Garlic - I honestly do admire all the things you say you have champaigned for and was trying to encourage you not to give up!!

Some of my reply was really general rather than directed at you anway

Sorry, it was not meant to be argumentative more to say that it's not that we don't appreciate all that the women who have worked tirelessly for us have done, because I for one do.

Muskateers, if you're talking about being a SAHM and all that entails, then I'm afraid you're wrong about feminism not being accepting of that. Radical maternal feminism is a strong and becoming louder voice within feminism. Wanting to stay at home and bring children up instead of working outside the home is a choice that many feminists make, and they do it in the full knowledge of the ramifications of that choice, personally and for women as a class.

You do have the right to choose, however, if your choices are damaging to women as a whole hint: being a SAHM isn't this , then other women have the right to choose to call bullshit. Women's choices don't happen in a vacuum, no matter how much some women want it to be so.

(sorry that took a bloody age to write, I was responding to your first post there Muskateers, not trying to be a dick)

I was pleased to have a conversation with a colleague in her 20s who turned out to use "Ms", was engaged but not changing her name. I was pleased as it is so far from the norm with younger staff (teachers) who all seem to have gone back to being called Miss. In fact Garlic I should be doing more in the classroom and will put something in place for next year. Little acorns and all that.

I'm just here to say Garlic, I understand completely why you feel like this. I am not at your point (yet) but I get how exhausting it is to have to fight the same fight over and over again - only this time we are constantly being told we are the oppressors, too, which just makes my blood turn to ice.

Anyway: . Here's hoping the tide turns, and sooner rather than later.

Don't give up.

Some of us are listening, and learning.

Like others have said, as a young woman you take for granted what you grow up with, its only as you get older and you learn what the previous generation did, that your eyes are opened beyond your own little world and its status quo.

Its easy to take for granted what you never had to fight for, and i did.. it wasnt until i became a wife and mother myself that i really understood what you'd been fighting for... when i see the news and see my peers in other countries being denied such basic rights as i've always had.. only because of the fight you and others like you fought.

Keep posting, keep teaching, without people like you, people like me wouldn't learn and know and carry the torch forward.