I'm giving up.

[GarlicShake]

This is more of a despairing rant than an invitation to reply. Sorry! I feel like I've nowhere else to put it.

I am 61 years old. I'm facing ageism & ableism as well as sexism. I have a corner to fight.

I went on strike for maternity rights, for equal pay, even for the factory to have a women's toilet. I forged a career in a world that was predominantly male, argued for my pay rises and trained younger people up to be non-sexist. I've been blamed and misconstrued, beaten up, raped, and carefully answered the gamut of sexist assumptions. I battled for my pension rights and I threatened the bank with legal action when they refused to take my salary into account on my first mortgage. I am still fighting.

But I just can't hack fighting for younger women any more. They're throwing away all that we, and the two generations before and the one after mine, won for them. I can't even tell whether they don't give a shit or they think all their rights are safe so they needn't bother.

I'm not going to argue the transgender thing any more. I'll stick to supporting the handful of FB friends who get it, but I'm not arguing in my own voice from now. I'm giving up on explaining why "Ms" matters - it's been around for 50 years, for crying out loud! People can figure out why the Nordic model's a better idea for themselves - or, most likely, not. Women can congratulate themselves on being financially dependent on husbands, and figure that out for themselves too.

And I think this country's going to vote itself out of Europe. That'll wake a few people up in short order, I fear, but I shall be needed to stick up for older & disabled people like me as our rights will get shredded. I am tired.

I am very tired and disappointed. Thank you for all the brilliant discussions, MN feminists! Good luck.

"non-men, not non-women of course! (Can't imagine the term non-women ever being used

Going back to an old post;
I had one early 20s work colleague tell me that all feminism has managed was to give women 2 jobs (paid and at home).

I've harrumphed about this myself more than once. Just shows how much we still need feminism so that women looking after home is not the default, or so that it becomes genuinely feasible to take a career break to raise children, IMO.

Well, yeah, but not all men are like that.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Garlic, i agree. i think some of the extreme trans activists worries me, but then some of the extreme RadFems do too, lol.. i'm very much a liberal, middle of the road kind of person and i just want everyone to be allowed to get on with their lives... but i do believe that Trans people have a place in feminism, as much as i believe to leave anyone behind in Rights while making inroads for ourselves isn't fair.

On another note...

I think all young women should be made to sit down and watch 'Made in Dagenham'

I know its only a small example of what women went through to push for equal rights, but i think its recent enough that most of us can relate to it, and it might teach them something.

Part of me thinks its our generations job (those of us in the 25-45 bracket with small/growing kids) to make our kids aware of just how important the things our parents generation did are to our status quo, and also to raise a generation of young men who have respect for women and don't automatically think they have a right to treat women as property... unfortunately we're doing that in a generation of media and glamour where a persons looks are king. but i have hope in some as my DSD is 23 and very much a feminist (i've had some influence, lol) and often despairs at her friends and younger sisters attitudes!

To look at things more optimistically, surely the reality has always been that only a relatively small minority of women were prepared to call themselves feminists.

But you can bet that if the big advances that have been driven by feminism came under serious threat, there would be a much larger number of female voices raised in protest, and prepared to join together to take action.

Let's not blame younger women for the sexism all women face every day.

My lack of credibility? Doesn't change the fact that feminism is so unpopular garlic.

BTW I wasn't taking the piss out of “The Patriarchy”. I was despairing of you for believing such a thing exists.

Olivia, I think the fact that you would question that patriarchy exists is what posters were alluding to re your lack of credibility. It points to you not actually understanding what is meant by patriarchy, if you think people are referring to some kind of conspiracy. A PP already posted its actual meaning, are you trying to say that definition has no resemblance to the reality of our society?

Snog along with Buffy yay, Buffy's back I'd say that I've never heard anyone suggest that young women were responsible for everyday sexism experienced by all women.

Some of them play along with it, because it's safer for them to do that.
Some say it doesn't affect them for various reasons other women on the thread have mentioned.
Some ignore it and make disparaging and dismissive comments about other women, because they've seen that it works for men, so...

Doesn't stop those of us who understand how patriarchy works getting tired of the whataboutery that goes on.

I have benefited Garlick and I am grateful.

I would be unaware of the attitudes to "non-men" had I not read threads on here raising objections to WEP and Greens policies and statements and although I do not always agree with GG on this I do. It may or may not cheer you to know I raised it with the 2 teenage DDs when they came home from school. Their considered opinion is that if you have a penis you don't get a say in who comes into the girls' changing room.

My grandmother was a graduate working mother. My other grandmother was an adjunct to my grandfather's job as a ploughman. They were both equally involved in working, childrearing and housekeeping. My grandfather never had more than the price of a packet of tobacco in his pocket as he was not in control of the HH budget.

My DM brought me up as a single parent and was able to get a mortgage and a bank account and a decent job in part because of feminism.

I am a graduate like my grandmother and worked in the City before retiring early to be a SAHP. Equality in the workplace was not a reality when I left it 15 years ago and the steady stream of constructive dismissal cases even now suggest it is still not. Nevertheless, I think progress has been made and I have been able to choose to be a SAHP rather than being forced into that role. However within my generation there is an uneasiness that this choice is being removed by philosophies and policies which elevate (and subsidise) the value of paid work over any other sort of social contribution.

Haven't read every post here so not sure if the thread's moved on but I found that OP so incredibly sad. I'm in my late thirties so in between the two groups, but one of the things I've enjoyed about the feminist groups I've been to is the way that older and younger women seem to listen to each other. I do know some passionate, courageous young feminists so they do exist! And surely in the sixties and seventies there were plenty of women who claimed not be feminist back then too?

Absolutely, its total crap.. Achievement is what counts and women have and continue to achieve plenty. I dont see myself my women friends or either of my DD's as victims subordinate to "The Patriarchy", I think it's quite infantile actually

Olivia, glad you are satisfied with 'plenty' but can you not see how some women would prefer 'an equal amount'?

If you think that your experience means that everything is rosy for women of all walks of life, I can only suggest you broaden your horizons.

Olivia.

Just because you lack the ability to understand something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Sorry.

It might be nice if you could extract capita from rectum long enough to understand that this is supposed to be a supportive thread, not a vehicle for you to endlessly demonstrate your inability to comprehend simple words. If you feel incapable of being supportive to a fellow human being who is in obvious distress, it might be kinder for you to troll a different thread. Thanks.

I'm with you o/p.

We've actually gone backwards wrt to gender roles. It's natural for girls to like pink and be nurturing. Boys are naturally more physical and aggressive. Bollocks.

It's also the media- it's all about looks, about being pretty, hot, sexy. That's what girls aspire to these days. The old stereotype of the nerdy girl in glasses and dungarees who is given a makeover, is suddenly pretty and has the football star fall in love with her.

Also this fear of being different- don't let you child stand out in case they're bullied. The attitude, even on here, that making your child conform is protecting her from bullies, let someone else make the stand and take the risk. Pluck eyebrows, shave arms in primary school rather than risk being a target.

No blame on young women from me about sexism per se. But I do put a certain amount of blame on those who are not prepared to be unpopular enough to e.g. say 'no' to unwanted types of sex or to call bollocks on all this "I'm a woman - though actually I'm a bloke in a frock", or call themselves that totally unnecessary invented meaningless word "cis", thus denigrating the meaning of the word woman etc. Maybe they just want to take an easy path, maybe they just want to be popular, maybe they need to be liked or thought not to be "on the wrong side of history" as one mansplainer tried to tell us.

It's just makes me think, why did I bother to fight for our rights, why was I prepared to make myself unpopular with bosses, boys, whatever…do whatever it takes to drag society into the modern era, only to confronted by compliance and timidity.

I am so with you Garlick

Olivia - nobody is claiming that no women achieve great things. But the persistence of deeply-ingrained sexist assumptions about women mean that it is still harder for women to achieve many of those things than it is for men. To deny that is naive or wilfully obtuse. Feminists want a level playing-field. Who wouldn't?

No, Buffy I see it as a total myth that alienates far more women than it appeals to. I think we're not really debating the big issue here, that being: why feminism is increasingly unpopular?

Olivia, Ive recently had a male client ask to have his main customer service manager a bloke. (Don't want to out myself but that's the basic set up) I admit I haven't come across many issues in the work place but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

He seriously thinks a man will do a better job.

To a pp who talks about motherhood, reproduction etc bring central to feminism, yes, that's probably why I feel it would be nice to have a coherent childfree movement.

Olivia do you see it as a 'total myth' that up until the mid 20th century every single government in the world was run almost entirely by men?