The city that allows women to sell sex

[Mumom0]

I heard this story earlier, which is about a designated prostitution zone in Leeds - this scheme has moved prostitutes from residential streets to places where businesses operate in the day but not at night.

There was a short interview with a male business owner who felt there was an impact on his business, but what about women business owners or workers - current or future?
This place becomes effectively a no go area for women, or worse an area where sexual harassment is legalised as 'other' women should not be there.
Interested in what others think as I used to live in an area with a reputation for on street prostitution, and there was more harassment (to non sex industry women) from men driving through the area to have a look and shout abuse than actual prostitution.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35987536

Massivestrumpet it was not me who said "This is the most horrifying sentence I have ever read on Mumsnet."

What I said was "I think the fact you don't find it upsetting is actually very sad. I don't mean to be offensive but I find this quite depressing and I also feel it is probably very unrepresentative of the experiences of prostitutes." Or words to that effect.

Because I do feel sad that any woman would live her life having sex with men for money. It seems a very destructive thing to do; in many ways. Destructive to self and also within society, to in some way contribute to the idea that women are objects that can be used in this way.

Re "Have you read the Relationships board? That's where I frequently see the most hair-raising posts about physical, emotional and financial abuse. There have been posts on there that kept me up at night. "

Yes, I have read them and they are terribly sad and make me very angry. Any abuse of anyone, male or female, by anyone, male or female, makes me upset and angry. And it is usually men who are abusing women.

And although I do not lay the blame of this abuse at anyone's door except the men who do this, I do feel that being part of a 'sex industry' that promotes the idea of women as commodities, where access to their bodies can be bought for cash, is 'unhelpful' to the wider population of women (and men).

"... something they consider inevitable." I think it is a terrible shame that so many see this as inevitable. I can't believe that any children growing up who first find out about sex (and love, and relationships) would really want to be the ones buying sex or selling sex! But somewhere in between those times and adulthood it becomes 'inevitable'. I don't believe it is so, and I won't join in the lie things cannot change. Whether they will change or not will be up to the next generation. I will do my best to bring up my son and daughter to not consider that sexual access to anyone's body should be bought or sold.

Totally agree with Somedyke re "Either way, the issue is male entitlement to the bodies of women, whether they have 'rented' them temporarily as in prostitution, or 'casually' as in I-bought-you-dinner-didn't-I, or more 'permanently' as in marriage until very recently."

just, just agree with sillage too.

For some prostitutes - I don't know how many, but certainly my friends - it really is "just" sex. A couple of girls I know who worked at busy parlours before going independent likened it to factory work: "Hard on the body, easy on the mind" That is, they would go home knackered - because a busy parlour can mean non-stop sex - but it didn't trouble them mentally.

For some of us, sex with strangers is really no big deal. Sex with unpleasant people can be unpleasant. Not all clients are pleasant. But most are. And we don't mind having sex with them. We put a lot of effort into screening out the unpleasant ones. That's where the phone/email/text bit becomes the most tedious. It's the primary drain on my mood and energy.

Not being able to screen out clients because you don't have autonomy or you're in a desperate situation or working outdoors where the only option is to get into a stranger's car... that would be miserable. I'm fully prepared to believe that those women are in a perilous situation and are not happy.

I've always wondered how prostitutes with partners or husbands manage their sex lives with their loved one - and how their partners see it.

If sex is reduced to a bodily function performed with hundreds of strangers and for some on a par with factory work, according to Massive, what does that do to 'making love' with their partner? After all, he might just be number 20 on the daily conveyor belt of meaningless sex divorced from any emotion or feeling.

Grimbletart It is very very different. For a start, you are sexually attracted to your parner and you love them. A job is a job. It's your job to fake it

I'm thinking back to my late 20's when I returned to the industry after a long break, and I was with the most amazing man. He was an artist, I was sleeping on a sofa-bed in the back of his art studio (basically a step up from homeless) surrounded by his work and I was obsessed with him. And sexually obsessed with him. He was like a magnificent God to me.

We had started a relationship and had been having the most incredible sex, when I returned to the industry. I tried to keep it from him, but it didn't work! Anyway he accepted it, and we continued a relationship for a good few years (needless to say doomed to fail!) But I only orgasmed with him and only properly enjoyed sex when it was with him.

There's a sort of particular head-space you enter into on a job. Not all women are capable of it.

DP and I met on the party scene. We do sex parties together. He manages the web side. We do couples public show, we watch each other play with others, we are in it together.
Then when we are alone it is so intimate, so loving, and our tastes are very personal, it's another feeling entirely. We have a family too and our household is very loving.

I would never in a million years want my children to live a life like mine though iykwim. I worry for them.

I do know WGs who keep it from their partner. A few say they are stripping/dancing. There is sometimes an admission like "Oh my God I did it just like a job with my husband" etc... So yes, probably it can happen sometimes, that you treat it like yet another shag.

Grimbletart, in my experience and based on what my friends say - it is the opposite. It's like any other sex life between committed partners and generally where the prostitute gets to relax and connect on an emotional level.

I don't know why we'd bother having meaningless, conveyer-belt sex for free.

The partners are able to "get it" and accept how we are. It's not uncommon for the partner to be a former client. (Although it's extremely rare for clients to turn into lovers. I don't know if that arithmetic makes any sense.)

It's so hard to explain...

try to think of it as a sexual orientation. There are people who can have sex - even enjoy sex - that is utterly without any emotional connection.

I think that some women who enter prostitution are of this orientation but they can fall under the control of other parties who seem to facilitate sexwork but impinge on the prostitute's autonomy. And she can end up miserable. I have posted before on other threads how I might, under certain circumstances, tolerate what you would call a "pimp." My friends who no longer work at massage parlours quit for a reason - they didn't like the rules and the relative lack of autonomy they can have as an independent. But they were content with the situation at the time.

Swings and roundabouts.

Massive re "It's not uncommon for the partner to be a former client. (Although it's extremely rare for clients to turn into lovers. I don't know if that arithmetic makes any sense.)" It doesn't you've just said two opposite things.

You make it all sound so normal. That I think is the very sad part to me, it is accepting as normal what is not. I'm glad it doesn't bother you, because if it did, it would be crushing.

Massive can I just say I do not mean these comments unkindly or in an insulting way, you are your own person and you've made your choices. I am sorry if my comments sound personal, I guess I should make them generally. Not personally.

I do not think prostitution is a choice any woman (girl, boy, man) should ever have to make.

Thanks for the answers. That's interesting. Something I've always wondered as I am (and would be) totally unable to have sex without emotional involvement.

One of the most interesting answers though on threads about prostitution is what Ophelia says i.e.

I would never in a million years want my children to live a life like mine though iykwim. I worry for them.

That speaks volumes about the sex trade.

To explain the "arithmetic" - there are a lot of clients who would like to become lovers. 99.99% of the time we're not having it. But 99.99% of a thousand still leaves one. So, it does happen that a prostitute meets a client and there's a genuine connection that moves into a real relationship. Four of my five closest prostitute friends are in relationships with men they met as clients.

So Massive that must mean that each woman is sleeping with a massive amount of men if quite a few prostitutes have boyfriends who were once clients and lots of men want to be prostitutes's boyfriends and prostitutes are very un-keen on turning a client into a boyfriend. If I have got the maths right?

Yes, we're having sex with thousands of men.

Again, I"m only speaking for myself and women like me.

I don't have sex with non-stop men. 10-20 a week, 45 or so weeks a year. My friends do more or less than me depending on what they want to do.

I've had sex with thousands of men. But I am still able to enjoy sex. I have orgasms. I can love someone. I love my children. I enjoy hobbies, etc. I am honestly exactly like everyone else - I just don't at all mind having sex with strangers for money.

1,000s of men, or a number of men thousands or times?

It does sound grim.

Massive would you mind if your children became prostitutes?

Massive would you mind if your children became prostitutes?

When people ask these types of questions don’t they think of all the lines of work they themselves would 'mind' their own kids going into? There are all manner of shit and dangerous jobs I can think of, and prostitution is certainly one of them. I would worry about their ongoing health, potential for harm and psychological impacts. A large part of my worries, for many lines of work, would be connected to the legality and social oversight/framework/attitude to the work they do.

When people ask these types of questions don’t they think of all the lines of work they themselves would 'mind' their own kids going into? There are all manner of shit and dangerous jobs I can think of

There are many jobs which are dangerous and difficult. The obvious ones are the armed services and the emergency services , but also less obvious ones , say social work, animal welfare. I might worry about my son if he picked any of them but I 'd be very proud of him if he did. And I'd probably bore people rigid telling them about him.

There are on the other hand plenty of superficially "shit" jobs .I'm not going to insult anyone by listing them because when you think about them , they might not be glamorous or well paid or afford hero status but if no one did them we'd soon notice and be the worse for them. If my son were doing them no, I would not mind.

I can't actually think of any job I would "mind" if he did other than I'm afraid yours which I would mind a great deal.

I'd mind because I do not think it would be good for him and I would not want anyone to know.

DadWasHere re "Massive would you mind if your children became prostitutes?

When people ask these types of questions don’t they think of all the lines of work they themselves would 'mind' their own kids going into?"

Of course there are a whole stack of jobs I would not want my kids to do, and guess what, I am not doing any of them myself! So my question is to Massive whether she would mind her children doing a 'job' she is doing?

I have sons so I can really only think of it in the hypothetical (there are gay male escorts but I can't say if their work is the same as mine, particularly in terms pertinent to feminist issues.)

Hypothetically...

I would have the grave concerns that I would have for any newbie that I mentioned up thread. It's a dangerous job, particularly for beginners.

I also wouldn't want them to suffer from the stigma and social isolation this job can bring.

But if I had a daughter who was of the same "sexual orientation" that I am, and I felt she knew what she was doing, I would be supportive. I would, however, encourage her to see beyond the "easy money" trap common to most hookers. That is, to think about the future in terms of saving and investment, and preparing for the possibility of wanting to make a change to a different career.

For me, a more suitable question would be would I feel happy to learn my sons were punters. I already worry about the effects of porn on young people. I see first hand the effects on some men and I know it's every bit as bad as the media has been telling us recently. However, those reports have focused on the damage to young women. The damage to young men is there, too. Some of them can't orgasm through sex with another person because of the addictive effects of wanking to porn.

I'd rather my sons were sexually fulfilled without needing to pay for it. But I can understand why some married men go to prostitutes and I sympathise with that. If it was the only way my son felt that he could stay in a marriage for the sake of his family, I would understand.

I only have a son and had not even considered the possibility of my son being a punter.

As I said I can't think of any jobs I'd mind him doing apart from yours. I would be horrified if he were a punter. I'm not sure I would be able to be around him if he ever did.

Sillage said that your comment about knocking out 15 on a shift at £40 a time was the most horrifying sentence she had read on MN. Sorry but the one below rivals it.

But if I had a daughter who was of the same "sexual orientation" that I am, and I felt she knew what she was doing, I would be supportive

If it was the only way my son felt that he could stay in a marriage for the sake of his family, I would understand.

Very interesting sentence, that. Why would you even think that to "stay in a marriage for the sake of his family" is something good and worthy? Especially if he is cheating on his wife.

What, exactly, is the advantage for the wife here? What is the advantage for the children? How is this for their "sake"?

It's like speaking a different language. My marriage would be dead if my husband had sex with a prostitute and I would not want him around my child.

If a daughter or son of mine became a prostitute or a punter I'm afraid I would feel a massive failure as a parent.

I agree grimbletart.

Interesting read first two artiles about disability and prostituon.

mikscarlet.com/tag/sexuality/

When it comes to using "what about disabled people" as an argument, the disabled guys I see are decently attractive, interesting, great guys. A few of them are married.

It's ridiculous to make an assumption that disabled folk need special services such as prostitution assuming they are so repellant to the general population they cant fulfill their sexual needs in any other way. It's actually rather disabalist to make such assumptions.

Disabled men are like all men. Some use prostitutes, some don't. The numbers of disabled clients I see do not add up to a disproportionately high number compared to the general population. So basically agreeing with Italiangreyhounds links.