The city that allows women to sell sex

[Mumom0]

I heard this story earlier, which is about a designated prostitution zone in Leeds - this scheme has moved prostitutes from residential streets to places where businesses operate in the day but not at night.

There was a short interview with a male business owner who felt there was an impact on his business, but what about women business owners or workers - current or future?
This place becomes effectively a no go area for women, or worse an area where sexual harassment is legalised as 'other' women should not be there.
Interested in what others think as I used to live in an area with a reputation for on street prostitution, and there was more harassment (to non sex industry women) from men driving through the area to have a look and shout abuse than actual prostitution.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35987536

I'm assuming the French campaign group Le Mouvement du Nid was not motivated by religious views.

Les Bourreaux: Le Mouvement du Nid lance une campagne choc contre la violence prostitutionnelle - Mouvement du Nid
www.mouvementdunid.org/Les-Bourreaux-Le-Mouvement-du-Nid

Iceland (and I assume also Norway and Sweden) did not factor in religious reasons for making the purchase of sex illegal.

Iceland: the world's most feminist country

gu.com/p/2fptn?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Lass great (but I don;t speak French)

Thanks for linking Lass. Those articles for me prove we live in a man's world in Britain.

Where are our women leaders in parliament? Perhaps change of the sex industry could happen if we had more people fighting a woman's corner.

IGH, mine isn't great but the tenor of the site is focusing on exploitation, risks, organised crime. I think we assume the ban on the purchase of sex in France was not argued for on religious sensibilities given how keen the French are on secularism. It would probably not have happened had it focused on sexual morality rather than the greater good.

Peyia fair point , but given what has recently happened in France it was interesting to see several male names amongst the senior office bearers and campaigners behind the French campaign on that website. Discussion of prostitution seems to be a predominantly female topic in the UK whereas there must, I assume, have been equal engagement in France.

I think the French decision to ban the purchase of sex is interesting given the major role prostitutes play in French literature (the work of Zola, Balzac, Flaubert, de Mapaussant, Dumas are chock a block with prostitutes dealt with as fully formed , three dimensional characters in a way that I don't think English literature does) Think also of the work of the photographer Brassai whose photos of prostitutes and brothels in Pigalle are treated as works of art.

Sweeping national stereotype coming up here but France is not thought of as a nation of prudes the way UK is but France has taken the decision that was then and this is now and prostitution is simply no longer acceptable.

Hi 0phelia - I would be interested to hear what you think of legalisation & regulation vs "Nordic model" (of letting prostitution continue as a black market & criminalising the customers).

Lass, perhaps change is coming!!

Although I'm shocked Northern Ireland have introduced the Nordic model but not the rest of the UK Is it because a large proportion of our politicians have their fingers in the cookie jar? There was that awful sex scandal that involved influential people.

The penalties in France are not that harsh either but a bold and good start that hopefully the rest of the European countries replicate.

My only fear is that the sex industry will go underground and then how would that be controlled? I was majorly all for regulating, keeping it out in the open so that those that chose to prostitute can feel/be safe. After reading the debate here I'm swaying towards the Nordic model but not entirely convinced for the reasons I have already mentioned.

For those that skim read please do not interpret it as me whole heartedly approving prostitution. I fully understand the harm to the majority who are vulnerable people.

My only fear is that the sex industry will go underground and then how would that be controlled?

Women who have exited prostitution and are openly speaking out against it seem to agree that prostitution cannot go underground. If men can find prostituted women, so can the police.

Not saying that there wouldn't be some prostitution still going on - there's enough demand that a drug-addicted woman can get her daily dose of drugs by just offering her body to the dealers instead of money. If every man wants to buy a woman, then there's no need to advertise.

But I do think that the Nordic Model would put a stop to the modern slave trade with women from Eastern European countries in a way that the German model of legalisation does not.

Men who know that they are already doing something illegal by buying a woman's body will be less likely to behave in a way that might cause her to report them to police.

Paradise?

s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/

"The idea of the law, passed by Chancellor Gerhard Schröder’s Social Democrat-Green coalition, was to recognise prostitution as a job like any other. Sex workers could now enter into employment contracts, sue for payment and register for health insurance, pension plans and other benefits. Exploiting prostitutes was still criminal but everything else was now above board. Two female politicians and a Berlin madam were pictured clinking their champagne glasses in celebration.

It didn’t work. “Nobody employs prostitutes in Germany,” says Beretin. None of the authorities I spoke to had ever heard of a prostitute suing for payment, either. And only 44 prostitutes have registered for benefits."

and

"There is “absolutely” a correlation between legalised prostitution and trafficking, says Andrea Matolcsi, the programme officer for sexual violence and trafficking at Equality Now. “For a trafficker it’s much easier to go to a country where it’s legal to have brothels and it’s legal to manage people in prostitution. It’s just a more attractive environment.”

She points out that Denmark, which decriminalised prostitution in 1999 – the same year Sweden made the purchase of sex illegal - has four times the number of trafficking victims than its neighbour despite having around half the population."

Hi CoteDAzur
There's no magic solution. All varieties of legislation address one problem and cause a counter-problem.

The cause of prostitution is male entitlement to sex, male attitudes towards women and their bodies, and women's economic disempowerment caused mostly by basically being a woman.
Women need money + Men "need" sex = Prostitution. Legal approaches only go so far in this equation.

My involvement has spanned a period of approx 20 years with several years away and doing other things but going back to it as mostly a side-line.

Each time returning I have noticed major changes driven by technology, rising immigration levels, the rise of internet porn and many other influences.
The law in the the UK hasn't changed a great deal since partial criminalization was first introduced so I can't credit any changes to that. It seems to work for the UK, establishments get closed down, WGs move on, kurb crawling is illegal but still happens, brothels illegal but still happen etc. The biggest influence to the industry are other laws surrounding immigration and trafficking.

On speaking with WGs about intoducing decriminalization, most are all for it for obvious reasons but if you give it more than a minutes thought you can see there are huge and very problematic ramifications. The saturation of the market, being a magnet for trafficking and sex tourism, and doesn't work in the way it is supposed to RE employment rights etc.

The Nordic model has been most effective on reducing street prostitution, which is a positive result, because street workers are the most vulnerable. When it comes to brothels etc the police know full well there are brothels but they are not camping outside arresting all the blokes because arrests generally occur on informer basis. Prostitution happens under Nordic model and I would take and official stats on the levels with a pinch of salt. Downsides are more pressure on WG to be secretive.

Where Nordic Model wins it for me in making men think twice for their actions, and results in the man being doubly respectful to the WG.
Any hint of misdemeanor, any aggressive text message or abusive phonecall, any punt where the man demands a service he hasn't paid for or even asking for something again that the WG has declined alread, all these disrespectful behaviours are basically bang to rights illegal under NM. The wider implications win it for me too, as it's basically about respect for women.

Men who know that they are already doing something illegal by buying a woman's body will be less likely to behave in a way that might cause her to report them to police.

I would hope so VV, I really do.

Thanks for sharing your POV 0phelia. This is a personal question (and sorry if I missed it earlier) but can I ask how you became a WG? Was it desperation for money, easy money, pressured into it? Obviously you don't have to ask but I'm intrigued. I hope it doesn't cause any offence.

So there is evidence of an increase in trafficking, where selling sex is legal IGH? That would make sense, as pointed out, it is easier for the trafficker. I just wonder how these traffickers are getting around law enforcement anyway? It's another world that completely depresses me, like we're helpless to change it - I really hope not however.

never helpless.

You're right IGH. I have my reasons for being cynical but awareness will encourage a change of attitude.

Peyia maybe because I have seen so often the good side of men it helps me not to be too cynical about men's ability to be good.

But I know when I read a lot of stuff about men's behavior and attitude I am horrified. I think we need to hold on to the fact society is evolving and although we have a longgggggggggggggggg way to go, there is hope.

Things like racism still exist but now there are laws to protect people of different skin colour and ethnicity, a thing that 100s of years ago may well have been unthinkable.

Likewise with disability equality and sex equality, still a long way to go but if you had asked a woman 100s of years ago if her husband having sex with her against her will was something she had legal redress on, well....

Don't mind Peyia.
I've said before, I don't think the fact I was a victim of CSA and then chose my first job to be prostitution are mere coincidences.

However, the main cause was basic economic need, the opportunity was easy in my area, many massage parlours to choose between (That's how I started out) and I was confident I could do it.

What you have been talking about RE trafficking, there's a tendency to view trafficking as a "Kidnap and rape" scenario, but it's more complicated than that.

There are seriously ambitious WGs abroad who actively look for that way to access places to work that will earn them the $$$. These girls coming in from Brazil and EE, they're ambitious to reach the "Golden Feilds" (UK and Scandi/Europe) and will pay good money to achieve it. These Gangsters / Global pimps / Traffickers whatever, find girls and find them work. Get them false paperwork to migrate. They get them breast augmentation, Lipo, extensions, they look amazing. They're instructed to perform all acts requested, and the amount of money some of these girls pocket can be eye watering, but I have no idea how much they hand over.

It's making the sex industry darker and more dangerous. Many factors are. The sex industry is in desperate need of reform in so many ways.

I don't do Escorting anymore (too old!) But I feel sad for these girls doing it today. I work as a hostess at Sex parties and that is less prone to the dark side of the business because it's part of a tight network.

Thanks for sharing Ophilia.

You mentioned large sums of money but I do wonder about the women who end up working in legalized prostitution where the price is incredibly low. Someone mentioned 10 Euros for full sex, I think, up thread. This was in Germany. Presumably as women get older their 'value' to Johns will go down so for some the future could look bleak.

I was really pleased to see you explain how the Nordic model was good for prostitutes, I am sure that if more had things explained in this way more would be arguing for this option. Do you agree or are many prostitutes very much set on legalizing prostitution.

I;ve never really understood but it appears it is not illegal to sell sex in the UK, but many other things associated with prostitution are. Is that right?

Yes, selling and buying sex are not illegal in the UK but kerb crawling, soliciting, running a brothel and paying for a trafficked woman are illegal in the UK. So a bit complex, difficult to enforce and causes various problems.

Your right the large sums of money point is not usual but it's something I have come across on the scene. These groups of girls who are using the party days (we get paid flat-rate per party) to meet clients for one-to-ones at £100++ per day, and also working 12hr shifts in flats and and working almost all day every day.

Pay structures I have come across include
Sauna/Massage client pays £45 on entry WG takes £22.50 per job
Sauna/Massage client pays £60 on entry WG takes £20 for 1st job £40 for 2nd job and £50 for all other jobs that shift.
Escort Agency client pays £100 per hour WG takes £50 per hour
And £40 - £60 per job in flats.
Indie Escorting I have never done but in London it's usually £100 an hour.

Not "eyewatering" amounts for sure and you have to be busy to earn the money.

The £10 per job business is grim. Street workers are known for those sorts of charges. But... To a Romanian in poverty, to imagine earning €10 a job and give half over to trafficker, if they are told they will be busy and taking home €50 a day and a place to live, it's probably Jackpot compared to their own currency and options in their home country.

Sorry that was longer than I meant it to be.

And sorry one-to-ones was meant to say £100 per job, not per day.

The UK position, excluding Northern Ireland, is that buying or selling sex is legal.

It is illegal for women to solicit in public and for punters to kerb crawl or attempt to solicit women.

It is illegal to run a brothel. The latter , as the pro prostitution lobby will tell you, means 2 prostitutes sharing a flat , or one with a maid/minder is illegal (and you are just a narrow minded nimby who only cares about property prices if you object to sharing a common stair with a brothel)

It is illegal to live off the earnings of prostitution- i e to be a pimp (the pro lobby will tell you this penalises any prostitute who employs a minder or whose partner is a minder or who shares his partner's earnings)

So basically if the transaction takes place entirely in private and no one benefits financially except the prostitute, it is legal.

Northern Ireland has opted for the Nordic model.

OH NOO And now it looks like I'm promoting The sex trade, like "Look how much ££ you can make!

Really, honestly it's not like that. You have to be prepared to shag 10 strangers a day or whatever. How irresponsible.

Should I get that post deleted? Don't even know why I put it.

Oh thanks Lasswith for explaining the legalities...

Ophelia I think your post is fine. I had no idea of the sort of money involved.

OH NOO And now it looks like I'm promoting The sex trade, like "Look how much ££ you can make!

Don't worry ... it doesn't look in the least attractive to me, money or not.

I am sure that, if at all, only very few women can do this sort of thing without taking severe psychological damage in the long run.

In a way, it is like selling a kidney. You have more money, yes, but you also have to cope with numerous complications and there is no predicting how expensive that will be.