The city that allows women to sell sex

[Mumom0]

I heard this story earlier, which is about a designated prostitution zone in Leeds - this scheme has moved prostitutes from residential streets to places where businesses operate in the day but not at night.

There was a short interview with a male business owner who felt there was an impact on his business, but what about women business owners or workers - current or future?
This place becomes effectively a no go area for women, or worse an area where sexual harassment is legalised as 'other' women should not be there.
Interested in what others think as I used to live in an area with a reputation for on street prostitution, and there was more harassment (to non sex industry women) from men driving through the area to have a look and shout abuse than actual prostitution.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35987536

Can I make it clear that although I agree Amsterdam 's red light district is not dangerous or scary I do not in any way support the legalisation / decriminalisation of prostitution. Amsterdam is one of my favourite cities and I go there a lot, but I'd like it even more if the red light district was closed down.

I also understand the Amsterdam authorities are less sanguine about it these days too. There has been a closing of many of the windows and encouragement of other businesses to take up spaces.

whatsupwithamsterdam.com/red-light-district/

www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/8961513/Amsterdam-an-end-to-the-red-light-district.html

in Amsterdam is it on street prostitution? I always got the impression it was indoors

Indoors , with the women sitting in windows. I think Amsterdam is a bit of a red herring in this discussion. I don't know what the area is like at night but during the day it's a busy tourist area, you will see men, women, couples even with children in it.

Amsterdam is a perfect real-life example of a "city that allows women to sell sex", which is the title of this thread. It is very relevant to the discussion & the opposite of a red herring.

"When my local area war an 'unofficial red light district' I would get curb crawled"

I would recommend going to an official red light district to see the difference. Women are not harassed on the streets, possibly because the rules are clear.

Yes, prostitues are inside in Amsterdam, steps away from (if not in) the bedroom. That takes the sex off the streets and lets these women stay in their chosen zone of safety.

Holbeck just cannot be compared with Amsterdam!!!!

I never used to go out on the streets in Holbeck at night when I lived there. This whole idea of a controlled red light district would be easier to defend if all the women weren't clearly on something.

The Amsterdam district really is very different from the Leeds district.

What Leeds has done is choose an industrial estate for a zone of tolerance so that the street walking scene can be more easily policed and the amount of public nuisance reduced. But the women don't need to register for a place or anything. Getting a window in Amsterdam is difficult and expensive.

Street walkers are exceptionally vulnerable - almost all sex work has moved indoors. Those who work on the street are the ones unable to access the Internet or don't have any place to work indoors. I suspect that the vast majority of them wouldn't prostitute if they didn't have other issues compelling them to do it.

Most punters in the UK know this and they avoid the street workers because it's too grim and seedy. I suspect that the ones who kerb crawl are attracted to the seediness and the vulnerability of the women.

However, I don't know that for a fact. I don't interact with any of them.

I certainly was not comparing the two. Amsterdam was used as an example of a controlled sex industry that appears safe.

I used to park in that area in Leeds because it's one of the few places with cheap parking near me (rest is upwards of £8 a day which gets very costly).

I stopped parking there since being kerb crawled a number of times whilst walking back to my car, a couple of times the guys did not stopping harassing me until I actually got in my vehicle. Luckily these both happened in daylight but it still made me feel very uneasy and I found a permanent paid for space before the nights got too dark.

What I found most upsetting though was seeing these women, who frequently were drunk or on drugs and looked so vulnerable. It felt like they were being betrayed by society. I can't really find the words to articulate it, but I think so many people support the industry because "it's the woman's choice and should be respected" but to call it choice just seems so hollow and false.

I've heard someone say that no woman wants an abortion like she wants a new car, or new shoes. Women want abortions like foxes caught in a trap want to chew off their legs - it's necessary to get to the end goal, not a choice in itself. That's what I saw when I saw these women and it really coloured my world view to think that society were so complicit in it.

I don't know, I'm not very good at writing it out. I would say though that there were some fantastic people manning support booths for those women on a nightly basis who felt like the only people who gave a damn.

I would recommend going to an official red light district to see the difference. Women are not harassed on the streets, possibly because the rules are clear.

Prostitution is legal in Australia and New Zealand, operated from brothels. There is a brothel a few minutes drive from where I live, after the local primary school but before the church, next to one of the three big supermarkets in the area, opposite houses and flats and a great little restaurant. Nothing special happens on the streets that would not conceivably happen on any street. Its a nice neighbourhood and did not change at all when the brothel appeared about 5 years ago. Its not labelled as a brothel of course, they never are, this one just specifies 'massage' with a locked front door and an 'open' sign. Apparently 'code' for people who want sexual services and look for the back entrance.

Many thousands of people go past it every day, men, women, children, elderly on mobility transport. Only a small proportion of people would know for certain what it was, a higher proportion might suspect its a brothel but not care and for the bulk of people its just a place they walk or drive past on their way to somewhere else. It, and its activities, are invisible to the wider community.

The fact we as a society want to sanitise prostitution and make it look acceptable seems very nice on the surface but I think it leads to more women entering prostitution, and selling sex seems to be an awful way to make a living. I am in favour of the Scandinavian model, where the Johns are criminalised not the women.

You dont like it OP, neither do it particularly, but it will always be with us.

We need to manage and regulate it. Keep sex workers safe, and punters safe from violent rip- off criminals/pimps. I believe this is more achievable if we just grow up about it. Stop trying to hide it away in dirty little corners of our cities.

Olivia what is grown up about assuming women will always be so strapped for cash they need to sell access to their bodies and men will always want to pay women for sex? It's not always in dirty little corner, sometimes it is out in the open, doesn't make it any less dirty to me. There are loads of things in society that re horrible and seem inevitable, as a society we could decide what is acceptable and what is unacceptable.

This sentence....
"Underpinning laws that legalise prostitution is the belief that prostitution is inevitable."... comes from this article, please read it is you are thinking of advocating for legislation about prostitution....

www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/the_real_harms_of_prostitution

Please note this quote... "As Amsterdam began shutting down its legal brothels a few years ago, Mayor Job Cohen acknowledged that the Dutch had been wrong about legal prostitution. It did not make prostitution safer. Instead, he said, legal prostitution increased organised crime. It functioned like a magnet for pimps and punters. Trafficking increased after legal prostitution—80 per cent of women in Dutch prostitution have been trafficked".

This is long, sorry but if you are interested you can Google 'how New Zealand prostitution laws actually hurt women' you will get a document called "Does Legalizing Prostitution Protect Women and Girls?"

The first bit says...

"DOES LEGALIZING PROSTITUTION PROTECT
WOMEN AND GIRLS?

Findings from countries and states where prostitution is legal
Millions of women and girls around the world are exploited in the commercial sex industry (i.e. the buying and selling of sex), which is often the end destination of sex trafficking. While human rights activists, government officials and the United Nations all agree that the trafficking of women and girls for prostitution is a serious – and growing – problem, there is disagreement as to the best way to prevent trafficking and exploitation. Some believe that targeting the demand for commercial sex that fuels sex trafficking while decriminalizing those exploited in prostitution is the most effective way to curb sex trafficking, while others argue that legalizing or decriminalizing the commercial sex industry is the best way to weed out and prevent exploitation and trafficking.

The legalization of prostitution includes legalizing the activities involved in and surrounding prostitution, and often imposing regulations specific to the sex industry. Countries and states that have legalized prostitution include: Senegal (1969), states in Australia including Victoria (1994) and Queensland (1999), the Netherlands (2000) and Germany (2002).

The decriminalization of prostitution includes repealing all laws or provisions against prostitution, and not imposing prostitution-specific regulations. Countries and states that have decriminalized prostitution include the Australian state of New South Wales (1995), and New Zealand (2003).
SEX TRAFFICKING AND EXPLOITATION OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN

 NETHERLANDS: In 2003, the Amsterdam Mayor stated that legalization had failed to prevent trafficking, saying “it appeared impossible to create a safe and controllable zone for women that was not open to abuse by organised crime.”i In 2007, a government report noted that “pimps [i.e. traffickers] are still a very common phenomenon.”ii

 NEW SOUTH WALES (AUSTRALIA): One police officer who investigates sex trafficking commented on the effects of decriminalization: “Although the intention was to provide a safe working environment for sex workers the reverse has occurred in that pimps and brothel operators were empowered and enriched.”iii

 NEW ZEALAND: The government noted that the law that decriminalized prostitution “cannot in itself prevent or address the causes of under age prostitution.”iv The National Council of Women of New Zealand, which originally supported decriminalization, expressed their concern that “we are still seeing girls as young as 13 and 14 on the streets selling their bodies,” and that men arrested for buying sex from minors are receiving light sentences under the law.v"

I won't paste any more of it in but you can see just from the introduction that legalising prostitution does not necessarily empower women or make things safer!!!

When I say grow up. What I mean is: no matter how much we try to police peoples sexual desires and their needs. Lust and the need for other people bodies for sexual fulfilment, will always find a way. Regardless of what you and I, or the mayor of Amsterdam says or thinks. We need to accept that and instead of punishing people for practising it. Both buyers and sellers need to be protected and we need to make sure (as must we can() that they come to no harm. I believe we'll be better able to do this is prostitution is out in the open, accepted and managed as best as humanly possible.

I'm not sure on this. I don't think of street walkers as sex workers. I think of them as vulnerable addicts turning tricks. They need more support. I'm all for them having a "safe zone" but I don't think this should be seen as a festive "red light district."

oliviaclottedcream Re "What I mean is: no matter how much we try to police peoples sexual desires and their needs. Lust and the need for other people bodies for sexual fulfilment, will always find a way."

Really, let's just clarify that actually means something like no matter how much we as a society detest the idea of people buying and selling bodies for sex (primarily men doing the buying and quite considerably women being bought), the sexual desires and the so-called needs and lust of other people (predominantly men) will always find a way. How about the way being that they get their shit together and get into an 'adult' consensual sexual relationship that is not based on paying someone so they can use them.

"Both buyers and sellers need to be protected" Did you read either of the links I posted, did you see prostitutes being protected?

"...we need to make sure (as must we can() that they come to no harm." So what do you think the future holds for women and girls who are prostituted, exposed to drugs, abuse, mental cruelty? Is the prognosis good? I think the grown up answer would be no.

Re "I believe we'll be better able to do this is prostitution is out in the open, accepted and managed as best as humanly possible."

Would you also accept that male violence is unavoidable? Child cruelty? People are always going to do horrible things but we don't simply legalise things because it makes life easier. There are already laws to protect women and if we took the Swedish model of out-lawing paying for sex then the women/girls/other prostitutes would be further protected. In our society you can't just do what you want with your body or anyone else's.

There are rules as a society of what is acceptable. You can't sell your eggs, or your kidneys or walk down the street naked. Just because it is your own body you can't just do as you like.

And personally (IMHO), realistically I don't believe prostitutes are doing as they like. I believe they are coerced into prostitution, pushed, snared, trafficked etc. Some are virtually born into it as they are from generations of prostitutes. The fact that pimps (almost all men) can make money from women makes them appealing to groom and cultivate. Making that much harder would hopefully enable more women to stay out of prostitution.

Certainly the opposite appears to be true, legalisation leads to more women in prostitution. Does this suddenly mean all is OK? are they flocking to it because it is a wise career move? I don't believe so. It's just harder to police. And if things in society cause harm, then I do want them policed.

There may be a small minority of women and girls engaged in prostitution who took a different route but I don't think Pretty Woman was a documentary!

MassiveStrumpet indeed, 'safe zone' implies women would be safe there, but if they are in a room with a man who has paid money for their body and feels it's his to temporarily 'own' and use, how safe is that!

As a man, I usually steer clear of these threads, but I heard about this on the BBC. My daughter is currently living in Leeds, so it caught my interest. I am torn between wishing prostitution away, and wanting the best of a bad situation for those women already involved. I am also wary of telling women what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. In short, I am not sure that there is a place for men in this debate. Or, if there is, what we can contribute.

"The fact we as a society want to sanitise prostitution and make it look acceptable seems very nice on the surface"

Legalisation isn't about making prostitution "look acceptable". It's about making it safer.

"but I think it leads to more women entering prostitution"

I don't know if that is true. Do you have any numbers that can back up that claim? (Not being aggressive, just curious)

"and selling sex seems to be an awful way to make a living"

To you. And to me, but then again I have never even had a one-night-stand. However, I realise that other people have different views and know for a fact that some women prefer it to other kinds of labour (with long hours that pay much less).

"'safe zone' implies women would be safe there, but if they are in a room with a man who has paid money for their body and feels it's his to temporarily 'own' and use, how safe is that!"

It is actually very safe, at least in Amsterdam. These rooms are clustered together, many in the same building & on a corridor. and women look out for each other. There are also brothels where male employees (not pimps) take care of bartending, security, etc.

You would be surprised as how safe and respectable it all becomes as soon as it's all overboard, legal and regulated rather than seedy and hidden away.

Grimarse there is always room for men who want to do good! Challenge those views that say boys will be boys and that women are here for men's sexual gratification, if they pay! Or that prostitution is inevitable - it's the oldest profession you know!

But you are wise to be aware that prostitution does adversely affect women more (although there are some men and boys engaged in prostitution too).

CoteDAzur re ""but I think it leads to more women entering prostitution"

Re - "I don't know if that is true. Do you have any numbers that can back up that claim? (Not being aggressive, just curious)"

I know you are not being aggressive, .

It's quite hard to find an article that gives figures but if you see below in the articles there are the words used Expanded the market and in the next article "The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favoured over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows.".... see below where it is referenced....

which all suggest growth of prostitution. That might mean either more prostitutes or prostitutes seeing more clients. I would imagine in all cases this is referring to the former - more prostitutes, more women engaged in prostitution.

"Other critics of the German model point to anecdotal evidence of growing numbers of young Romanian and Bulgarian women travelling to Germany to work on the streets or even in mega-brothels."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-33850749

I am aware that the word in there is 'anecdotal'.

You did not ask about trafficking but as trafficking is part of the picture and as that increases with decriminalisation.....

orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/

"Does Legalized Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?

"Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favoured over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows.
......"Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization."

And if you think those trafficked women are specifically prostitutes (as oposed to domestic workers etc), it really does show that decriminalising does not lead to fewer prostituted women, but to more!

Must go and make the tea, but before I go....Re "and selling sex seems to be an awful way to make a living"

Well yes, it is not just me though, or you who may think this, it is the opinion of professionals too, who care about women's mental and physical health.

The Nordic or Swedish model does not criminalise women (or men) who seek to sell sex, so in that sense the chance to report crimes, access medical care, speak openly about the life and dangers, to seek an exit, etc etc is all still there. That is why I support the Nordic or Swedish model rather than decriminalising prostitution.

This article may paint a clearer picture.... it's specifically about Leeds...

www.catwinternational.org/Home/Article/649-uks-first-redlight-district-leeds-cruel-solution-to-prostitution-and-violence

"After legalizing the sex trade, Germany witnessed an increase of unspeakable violence against prostituted women at the hands of buyers of sexual acts an exponential increase in sex trafficking, and the birth of country-wide chain brothels seemingly overnight. The Netherlands is also struggling with the disastrous effects of legalization and the same scenario is unfolding under New Zealand's decriminalized regime. In the sixteen years since the Swedish government passed legislation known as the "Nordic Model" not one prostituted woman has been murdered by a "client;" in Germany, the body count since legalization is growing, with crushing silence and indifference."

Re 'respectable' I wonder if these women would feel respected? Really, respected for who they are? To assign this to women, because there is so little else out there for them is the exact opposite of respect, IMHO.

The above article goes on to say...

"Yes, the vast majority of women and transgender people bought and sold in the sex trade are in "the life" because they lack choice. They have children to feed, seek shelter, or suffer from trauma-induced ills that make escape seem impossible. Rather than condemning them to the sex trade, the Leeds City Council should invest in creating educational and economic opportunities, providing job training, and funding frontline service organizations that offer meaningful exit strategies for prostituted individuals, regardless of immigration status."

Must go got other fish to fry, literally!

Sorry, bold did not work...

In the sixteen years since the Swedish government passed legislation known as the "Nordic Model" not one prostituted woman has been murdered by a "client;" in Germany, the body count since legalization is growing, with crushing silence and indifference.

Rather than condemning them to the sex trade, the Leeds City Council should invest in creating educational and economic opportunities, providing job training, and funding frontline service organizations that offer meaningful exit strategies for prostituted individuals, regardless of immigration status.

It''s good that you managed to get a word in about 'male' violence (the only kind obviously) and child cruelty! What that's got to do with it, I've no idea?? Still the casual observer might make the link, between all 3 subject which is, I suppose your goal?

As for how about men getting their shit together So it's for you to make moral judgements over whether or not other people are living in a right and godly way is it? Perhaps we should arrest those terrible men that aren't coming up to stretch in the way they manage their love lives? Who's going to do this enforcing btw, you, with the help of your puritan army perhaps? Stalin and Oliver Cromwell no doubt would approve!

We need to be adult about sex, and about what it is. Sex workers do an important and necessary job, whether moralists like you like it or not. How about women that use male escorts, or disabled people, for whom a sexual experience is life enhancing, emotionally and physically? Should we police their sexuality too?

As Camille Paglia said - "Simply in the Western world, pagan sexuality has survived 2000 years of Judaeo-Christian persecution and is hardly going to be defeated by a few feminists whacking at it with their brooms.”

People exploit other people and I don't like that any more than you. But it won't be legislated and policed away. All we can do is manage it. Try to limit the exploitation and see that people are protected. Have laws that are mature enough to recognise that this wont go away because we the offended wish it so..But rigorously protect sex workers and try to limit the harm done. This discussion is as old as the profession itself, so unless you have something new to add to it I'm afraid I've heard it all before