The city that allows women to sell sex

[Mumom0]

I heard this story earlier, which is about a designated prostitution zone in Leeds - this scheme has moved prostitutes from residential streets to places where businesses operate in the day but not at night.

There was a short interview with a male business owner who felt there was an impact on his business, but what about women business owners or workers - current or future?
This place becomes effectively a no go area for women, or worse an area where sexual harassment is legalised as 'other' women should not be there.
Interested in what others think as I used to live in an area with a reputation for on street prostitution, and there was more harassment (to non sex industry women) from men driving through the area to have a look and shout abuse than actual prostitution.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35987536

"As for how about men getting their shit together So it's for you to make moral judgements over whether or not other people are living in a right and godly way is it? "

Well, leaving the "godly" bit aside, that is in fact for me to do. If by "you" you mean society at large. That's why we have laws.

Yes Bert. Indeed. We have laws to deal with all sorts of terrible things. Those laws don't stop all the terrible things happening but we don't just give up.

Olivia, if you have "heard it all before" why are you still on the thread ?

Perhaps your lofty and rarefied viewpoint will not get quite the recognition you think it deserves here. I imagine that will be very irritating for you.

I seem to have touched a nerve oliviaclottedcream, that was not my intention. I admit many of my comments were directed as replies to things you said, but they were not exclusively directed at you, nor meant to rile you.

But to reply to you, as best I can... re "It''s good that you managed to get a word in about 'male' violence (the only kind obviously) and child cruelty! What that's got to do with it, I've no idea?? Still the casual observer might make the link, between all 3 subject which is, I suppose your goal?

My goal was to argue that legalising prostitution was not generally good for women and girls (and men and boys) caught up in it.

Most violence does come from men. But my point about violence and child abuse was that these were and are sometimes seen as just things that happen. And I bet 100s of years ago society (men, who at the time were the only ones who could vote and who generally controlled things) may well have argued that what we would call domestic abuse or domestic violence, was just normal, nothing wrong it, and not something that could be changed. Now we see things differently. I hope one day we will about prostitution. And hope both will change.

So it's for you to make moral judgements over whether or not other people are living in a right and godly way is it?

No! I never mentioned God and there are plenty of people who do not condone paying for sex. I usually try to pepper my comments with 'IMHO' and that is what it is, but others can share that opinion.

Actually, having women in prostitution can suit a society's morals, the society can stigmatise those women, and men can use them and it kind of keeps the status quo going. This is not my viewpoint, but my point is - so called 'morality' can work in a variety of ways.

"Who's going to do this enforcing btw, you, with the help of your puritan army perhaps? Stalin and Oliver Cromwell no doubt would approve!" I'm really not sure where this is going!

I expressed an opinion that's all. That if men wanted to have sex with women maybe it should be with women who wanted to have sex with them - and not for money. I didn't say I would be 'enforcing' anything.

'feminists' - 'brooms' now who is making links!

If having sex to enhance someone's life is such a great thing why do people want to be paid to do it?

"see that people are protected... " That is my aim too, read up a bit on prostitution in New Zealand and Germany and see if you really feel people are being protected there.

"Have laws that are mature enough to recognise that this wont go away because we the offended wish it so."

I am NOT offended, I am heartbroken that women and girls, some not much older than own daughter, are used by men for sex. You may feel your position is justified as I feel my position is justified. And you may or may not be aware I am a Christian but before you get confused it is not because of any prudish view or concerns over public morality, it is the lives of people, predominantly women and girls but really all prostituted people, which concerns me.

I used to be in favour of legalising prostitution, for the sake of the women engaged in it, and then I read up on it more, and I changed my view, because I feel the Nordic model offers women the best protection.

You are welcome to make fun of my faith, and of the fact that I am a feminist, but please do be aware it is my concern for women and girls (and others) caught in prostitution that fuels my views and not any sense of prudish morality.

I don't see the slightest requirement to have a religious justification to think prostitution is bad for women and bad for society generally.

Nor is that connected with prudery.

"This discussion is as old as the profession itself, so unless you have something new to add to it I'm afraid I've heard it all before"

Have you got anything new to add? Except "Men have needs so women have to accommodate them. Let's find a way to make sure they kill, hurt or exploit as few women as possible while satisfying their uncontrollable urges"

Oh dear, where to start-? As for the magnificent Nordic model that you keep pulling out like Calamity Jane does her pistol .. This is not some kind of panacea I'm afraid. It still all about focusing law enforcement efforts and resources toward fighting the sex trade. Punishing consenting adults by arresting, fining and jailing people over consensual sex. If we really want to take a step forward to something that has a real chance at decreasing violence against women—we should decriminalise prostitution altogether.

If having sex to enhance someone's life is such a great thing why do people want to be paid to do it? Are you serious? Did you understand that point, or are you just so set on having the last word that you'll say anything? In some countries the state has provision for severely disabled people to engage the services of a sex worker. Your problem with that is what exactly? That they, the person paying, might just enjoy themselves for a brief period?

Oh no I'm not making judgements but
If men wanted to have sex with women maybe it should be with women who wanted to have sex with them - and not for money. That doesn't amount to a moralistic judgement then for you? I suggest you just mind your own business about what other consenting adults wish to do with each other -- Is that possible?

As for the rest of my rarefied viewpoints? I am, I'm proud to say, pro-prostitution, pro-abortion, pro the rights of trans-gender people to modify their bodies however they like and I'm also pro-legalisation of drugs. Now, with the exception of the the latter, (which we're still working on), it seems we have all those things, so I guess I win ? My viewpoints therefore, can't be that rarefied can they? You, I'm afraid will have to remain on the sidelines with your fellow puritans shouting, I'm offended - ban it all.

"That doesn't amount to a moralistic judgement then for you? I suggest you just mind your own business about what other consenting adults wish to do with each other -- Is that possible? "

Happy to. How do you define consent for women in the sex trade? Or are you one of those people who think of prostitutes as either doing it part time to pay their way through their PhDs or livimg in charming flats with velvet curtains in Mayfair entertaining a few selected clients in the afternoon before drifting off to the opera with a minor Royal? Or as women who love sex sooooooo much it's a perfect career choice?

Oh, and "adult". There's another can of worms..........

"What I mean is: no matter how much we try to police peoples sexual desires and their needs. Lust and the need for other people bodies for sexual fulfilment, will always find a way." Yet there is clear evidence that women do not feel the need to buy men bodies in anything like the numbers that men feel the need to buy women's bodies. So how do women manage their lusts and desires (not needs. There is no need to have sex)? And why can't men do the same?

First off scallops. Men do not 'buy women's bodies' -- OK? A sex worker doesn't sell her body, she/he leases it for a short period. No one is buying their soul, mind, body or her life - just their participation.

Exploitation and trafficking are about just that: exploitation and trafficking, not the act of paying someone else for sex. There is a huge difference and this really needs to be understood and accepted as fact or else we can't really discuss this. You'll then have to keep asking rhetorical questions out into the ether - such as - “why, oh why can't men do the same as us women ? “

Bertrand What a silly post. You're better than that - trust me..

So you're saying that no assertive woman, working for herself, is capable of making a positive, informed decision to be a sex worker? And anyone who believes that there are some, is falsely invested with this 'Pretty Woman syndrome' you keep mentioning (a movie I've never seen btw) is that it?

Why I'm wondering do you so wish to stereotype all sex workers as abused and exploited? Is it fear that there are women different to you out there, for whom sex work offers a reasonable 'career choice' for them. That they do it because they can earn good money from it, because they are good at it, because it's a better option than the alternatives that are open to them - even, heaven forbid, that some of them might even enjoy it?

I know you mean well, but propagating fear, alarm, and supposing all sex workers are 'victims' as well as automatically associating trafficking and abuse with prostitution specifically, does absolutely nothing to help people forcibly trafficked into sex work. We need to de criminalise prostitution, recognise sex workers' rights and acknowledge that of course there is exploitation and abuse in this particular occupation. As there is in every occupation, unless there is legal protection that's stringently enforced.

We don't criminalise the entire building industry to stop the rogue builder who exploits and endangers illegal workers. What's the difference?

Anyway this is getting boring now, I'm sure you agree? I know I haven't changed your mind. Minds are well and truly made up on this subject. All we can hope for is to agree to disagree.

I was just thinking about the ole 'severely disabled people need/deserve sex too' line. Okay, ignoring for the moment the idea (that some disabled people might find offensive, or indeed, part of the very problem with the way we view disabled people in the first place!) that people would never have sex with a disabled person anyway...........And then I thought of Stephen Hawking, who seems to have quite an active marital and family life (2 wives and 3 children). I'll admit in his case, people are perhaps more likely to believe the 'I love him for his mind' line....................

Okay, so even if you did feel sorry for a disabled person, who might rightly resent the idea of a pity fuck, what is it about paying for it that makes it better? The power relationship that being a consumer in a capitalist society gives you. And a power that men have had over women for centuries...........

Like it or not, prostitution and sex work, or surrogacy, entail use of and violation of anothers bodily autonomy in a way ordinary paid work does not. Paid work itself is problematic enough. But given the history and continued existence of the patriarchy, 'sex work' and paid surrogacy are a step too far for me. Yes, surrogacy done in the name of love by a relative or close friend is fine and laudable -- but just as we avoid paid organ donation, and paid surrogacy (especially of the overseas women rent-a-womb kind), so I think we should avoid allowing paying for sex. Because surrogacy, organ donation, and prostitution just aren't like other paid work. And in particular those which are primarily concerned with the bodily integrity of women (surrogacy and prostitution).

Olivia the more posts I see like yours the more firmly I am of the view that trying to treat prostitution as just another job simply does not wash.

This has nothing to do with religion- I am an atheist.

It has nothing to do with prudery -far from it. I had a very , shall we say, interesting sex life in my late teens and early 20s.

It doesn't even , for me, have anything to do with feminism. For me, everything I have read about it seems to show it lead to a degradation and dehuminsation of all concerned.

Re Pretty Woman - what a stupid film. There was a fascinating 10 (?) year anniversary analysis of it. It included a vice cop , a refuge worker and a minister who worked in the Sunset Strip area. They were lovely people. They had been there for years and seen it all.

The policeman started work from the point of view he didn't care what consenting adults did in private. His remit was drugs, extortion, under age girls. The refuge worker had started with the view of being supportive and non-judgemental and the minister, who obviously was the one who would find prostitution the most problematic, tried to take the same approach.

All 3 of them had come to the conclusion that prostitution was basically incompatible with human dignity. They had seen the effects. The policeman in particular thought Pretty Woman was so irresponsible it should have been banned.

"Exploitation and trafficking are about just that: exploitation and trafficking, not the act of paying someone else for sex. There is a huge difference and this really needs to be understood and accepted as fact or else we can't really discuss this. You'll then have to keep asking rhetorical questions out into the ether - such as - “why, oh why can't men do the same as us women ? “" Was that directed at me . I wasn't talking about exploitation and trafficking. I was talking about men's sense of entitlement that they should have acces to women's bodies and how women don't have that sense of entitlement. I would suggest therefore that Lust and the need for other people bodies for sexual fulfilment, will always find a way. may not be as absolute and inevitable as you think it is. Or do you think women don't feel lust?

You don't seem to have a very high opinion of men.

Olivia I am finding your posts quite unpleasant, you are telling me what you think of me as well as my views and insisting I have to see things your way or we can't discuss. Well I don't see things your way.

I don't think the majority of women and girls are in prostitution because of genuine choice and some are trafficked there to meet the huge demand of men who want to buy access to their bodies. And when we say buy we know the people really making the money are not the women themselves.

Yes that was a serious point about sex with disabled people. I don' think any woman should have to sell sex, whether the John is disabled or not. The fact you think I object on some sort of puritanical grounds is because you seem insistent on casting me in the light of some sort of moral crusader who wants to stop people having 'fun'.

I've tried to tell you that this is not the case. My judgement is not on people having sex, it is on people buying sex. If you cannot see the difference I am not sure how I can explain it more.

You don't seem to be engaging with what I am saying, rather what you think of me!

I can see your argument, you want freedom for people to do what they like? Is that the case?

But my argument is the evidence is that men doing what they like, in this situation, leads to many, many women and girls miserable lives, their physical and mental health compromised.

I know the 'boring' comment was direct at another person but personally I don't think safety of women and girls is a boring topic. Plus it is not illegal in the UK to sell sex, as far as I am aware, so canny, savy smart women who chose prostitution can do it.

Ps you haven't changed my mind Olivia but I changed my mind from being pro legalisation to pro Nordic model so change is possible!

I'm just so happy to stand with Italiangreyhound, scallops, somedyke and lass on this thread. Amazing women!

I'm another in total agreement with Italian greyhound (and somedyke, scallops and lass). all I can add is that I'm also a staunch atheist and was a complete hellraiser in my day so my viewpoint is absolutely not shaped by either religious sentiment or pearl clutching. I arrived at my thoughts on prostitution by way of good old fashioned feminism

I'm always baffled at the degree of screwed-upness that must go with anyone who can seriously defend street prostitution as a freely chosen lifestyle choice.

But here's a bit of food for thought:
recent BBC article on raids on German mega brothel involved in trafficking There are 400,000 prostitutes in Germany - that's approximately 1% of the female population taking no account of age, probably between 2 and 4% of the female population in the age groups realistically involved. Contrast that to the UK which has (according to estimates) approx 80,000 prostitutes. (Germany pop = 80 million, UK pop = 70 million approx).

And from that well-known bastion of radical feminism, the Sunday Telegraph:
article on mega brothels
There are lots of chilling details, but one is that in some of the roadside booths, prices drop to as low as 10 euros for full sex.

This, to my mind, gives the complete lie to the libertarian argument that women with low educational skills should be allowed to "choose" prostitution as one of hte few ways of making decent money available to them. With widespread legal prostitution (and the concommitant breakdown on social constraints on men seeing prostitution as "normal") comes commodification - that's the way capitalist economics works. So for every independent sex worker screening her clients and charging a high amount, you have maybe 10, 20 sex workers at the bargain basement end of the market, coerced, unable to screen their clients, desperate. Legalilsed, unconstrained prositution leads to an increase in demand (the numbers speak for themselves) and an exploited underclass of workers at the bottom of the heap.

(That is, of course, before you get to the issue of the impact on the rest of the female population of its being seen as legitimate to treat women as sexual commodities).

Btw I used to live in Leeds and know Holbeck quite well - how anyone could see street prostitution there as living up to the myth of the happy hooker is completely beyond me. And how anyone could continue to defend the "safe zone" after the murder of a prostitute there just leaves me gobsmacked at their utter lack of humanity.

Disclaimer - not religious, not a prude. Fair few sexual partners in my life, one of my hobbies is reading and writing female-centred online erotica (which I am reliably informed I am rather good at).

I'm saving The Telegraph article for the next time the "it's all fine in Germany " line gets used. So much for being employees with rights.

€175 per night to rent a room. I don't know about the regional cities but hotel prices in Berlin are actually very cheap. I've stayed at couple of times at a 5 star hotel with a Michelin restaurant for less than that and at the Adlon for not much more.

You don't seem to have a very high opinion of men.

Yeah, I am always confused why so many women think that 1) men are mere wild animals, completely controlled by their base insticts, who will rape if not given access to prostituted women but 2) we should just accept this and sentence a group of women to be men's designated victims so that we will hopefully be spared - instead of, you know, locking those men up in prisons. Or zoos, seeing as they are so animal-like.

It's like feeding a virgin to the dragon every year in hopes that he'll leave the city alone.
But apparently, opposing this and choosing to kill the dragon instead is a way only chosen by religious extremists like St. George.

I love that analogy, VV

As a sex worker and now nearing retirement, I am pro Nordic Model. I see it as a positive pro-female move, makes a strong statement aimed at male violence, particularly sexual violence.

I believe designated sex-trade zones are a bad idea because they promote street work which has huge implications for a WG's life-path, and knock-on effects regarding male attitudes towards women: I.E these girls are bad VS these girls are good.

Sorry - clumsy wording on my part - when I said the "rest of women" I was thinking of the argument which says "but some women freely choose to become prostitutes and who are you to say they shouldn't" - and trying to draw attention to the fact that their decision has knock-on effects for those of us who are not prostitutes.

VV George and the dragon analogy is very good on the horrible nature of "othering" women in prostitution (and its wider place in the ghastly madonna/whore dichotomy).

The virgin and the dragon, exactly! Brilliant example.

I am actually keen to find all anti prostitution (and anti porn) sites which are completely non-religious because, even as a Christian, I can can that the argument should not be made on any individual moral grounds. but on human rights grounds. It's easy for those of us who are anti prostitution (or anti porn) to be labelled as kill-joys/pearl clutchers/prudes etc etc.

Thank you atheist/agnostic sisters for proving that one wrong!