Gendered clothing - grrr.

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

Not a new subject, I know, but I've been suffering delayed irritation due to listening to a professional mansplainer on the subject (I was a at a party full of women. He seemed to imagine we would all gather round to hear his views, and it was Very Tedious). However, his basic point was that women have it so much better than men, as men's clothing is so very boring, whereas women can wear whatever they like and no one minds.

A youngish woman pointed out, quite politely, that women's clothing is generally more expensive and poorer quality, and obviously knew what she was talking about as she makes her own clothes. And she pointed out that this also applies to so-called 'gender neutral' clothing that women wear, such as jeans or shirts - so it isn't, in fact, gender neutral at all.

I've just thought about that again as a friend posted about seeing small girls dressed in skirts struggling to enjoy soft play.

Now, I know these things are choices. You can certainly dress girl children in 'boy' clothes. You can also be an adult woman who wears men's clothing, and I know plenty of women who do. There were several women in the room at this party who were patently doing so. But it got me wondering why this bloke just assumed that it was 'easy' for women to wear men's clothes, but totally unthinkable for him to do the same? I know that a man wearing a skirt will probably get funny looks - but actually, so will a woman in a suit and tie.

We seem to have accepted that it is shockingly transgressive for a man to wear anything belonging to the other gender, and I wonder if that actually belittles the amount of flack I think women and girls do still get for doing exactly the same?

I don't want to belittle it either, Robin, sorry if I gave that impression.

I do feel that it's pretty much normal for me to leave the house looking butch whereas it would have been more of a target for comment 20 years ago, but not now. That's just my experience.

I do think it would be much harder for a man to leave the house wearing a skirt or dress, he is likely to encounter an insult or stares much faster. In fact, sadly, it's almost inevitable that someone will at least think it, whereas I think "butch" has blended in in a way that a man in a dress hasn't.

No, you're fine. It's just, I wasn't saying it wasn't hard for men.

Ach, posted too soon.

I guess what I am noticing from this thread is that, if women look 'stylish' or wear feminine versions of masculine clothes, that seems to be mainstream. Ie., if women are still performing femininity, we're ok with them. Whereas a man in a skirt gets flack because people mock, and think he looks incongruous and effeminate. I do honestly think a lot of the negativity is to do with the shock of the contrast - skirt plus hairy legs/beard/whatever. Which says a lot about how we stigmatize gendered attributes. The female equivalent to that isn't a woman in a nicely tailored, slightly masculine suit.

I do wear men's clothing on occasion: in particular hoodies, jumpers and trainers. I'm quite tall so most of the time, I struggle with dressing my upper half so men's clothing is ideal for me as I'm more comfortable than women's clothing.

If I'm honest, women's clothing brands must assume that every woman is average height! Most places don't stock their tall range in store anymore so I have to order online which for me is an inconvenience.

I used to wear mostly masculine clothing - about half from actual men's stores, half women's jeans, trousers, shoes. Worked fine while I was slim and flat- chested, but if I was out alone late at night people would shout abuse like "you look like a woman" - because they assumed I was a feminine-looking man, because women don't wander around alone at night...

Now breasts and hips make getting any clothes that fit hard, so I have to include female-aimed trousers and tops in my wardrobe. And the result is always a much more fitted, shape-hugging look.

If you think of men wearing stretchy tops, lycra, etc, the look is essentially "gay nightclub" - if you look at gay scenes or goth clubs you will see lots of men wearing a more 'feminine" look including some skirts, but both will be deemed unacceptable by lots of the general public.

Women's clothing is always going for smaller markets as it has to fit so many more varieties of shape, so it ends up more cheaply made for the same price. I could go for large baggy clothing to solve the problem of fluctuating shape but then would look inappropriate in an office - so as others have said, the only option is to spend significant effort on clothes-hunting. Or find a tailor, but I did that for one outfit and promptly got pregnant and never fit it again!

Enforced choice or choices that all come with muttering, isn't so great when the choice of an "unmarked" outfit isn't available. I'm tempted to solve the fitted problem with an abeya or similar, but that in the UK would hardly be an uncontroversial choice!

Women's clothing is always going for smaller markets as it has to fit so many more varieties of shape, so it ends up more cheaply made for the same price.

I had never thought of that. But of course - it must be!

Funny what you say about the 'you look like a woman' response - my mate told me that she sometimes sees cute gay men check her out and then look disappointed when they realise she's not a man! I don't think she minds, however.

But I think you are naive if you believe that women who wear men's clothing largely escape comment. I would think you've heard of it happening, even if you've never seen it?

OP - You only have to look around any high street, pub or shopping centre to see women wearing clothes , which if they were to swop with a man of the same height and general size would look as if it were men's clothes.

I'm still utterly confused by what you mean by "men's clothes". Are you referring to clothes bought in the men's section? If so my premise still applies.

There is a discussion to be had about why it is such a contravention of social mores for men to wear obviously feminine clothes (I gave you an example of an imaginary shopping trip but you haven't responded) but that is one you seem uninterested in having.

You seem to be uninterested in having any conversation which does not accept your starting premise that it is really hard for women to wear men's clothes (whether that means clothes bought in the men's department or clothes which look like men's). This is despite posters saying, er no it isn't.

How about you read my posts?

I've already addressed your 'confusion'. I tried my best to do it patiently and politely, and I was worried I had offended you. But I've answered your questions many times now.

You yourself expressed sympathy for my friends who found it hard to wear men's clothes, because of the negative responses they got. To take that back in such a rude way as you just have makes me disinclined to keep on responding to you asking me to walk you through the same explanations over and over, TBH.

I think on a basic level, your mansplainer is probably right - men might have to decide between single or double-breasted suit jacket, 3 or 4 buttons up the sleeve, width of lapels, waistcoat or not - and some of that is dictated by current fashions. But basically, for work purposes, they're probably still deciding whether to go for a dark grey or a navy suit, and if the dress-code is smart casual, it's basically a shirt and trousers.

As a woman, I have the choice of trouser suit or dress suit or skirt suit, or trousers and shirt or trousers and smart non-shirt top or skirt or dress. I mostly wear trousers, for practicality as much as anything, after the day I ended up going under the floor in the datacentre - a skirt really wasn't best for that.

So in terms of acceptable styles available to wear, on a basic level, women do have more choice. But then there are the questions about comparative quality and cost, and also expectations, that you're expected not to wear the same thing every day, or even every week. Women are expected to have a wider wardrobe available to them, so even if a woman's shirt costs the same as a men's shirt, women will probably be expected to have a different range or styles and have more available overall, which means they'll end up spending more.

Then outside of the workplace (and ignoring sports-specific clothing), men basically go from jeans and T-shirt to chinos and shirt to suit. Women's clothing covers a far greater range, according to the formality of the occasion, and the accessories to go with it (shoes, bags, jewellery,) and if you have a summer with a lot of weddings, a man can wear the same suit, but a lot of women wouldn't wear the same dress.

I have at times worn men's clothes in my time - we often had boys' clothes as hand-me-downs when I was a child, but frankly, a t-shirt is a t-shirt, jeans are jeans, a jumper is a jumper. I did get laughed at for wearing hand-me-down jeans when I was about 10, but that's because they were flares, and everyone else had drainpipes by then, not because they were originally boy's trousers.

I wore my boyfriend's shorts in my 20s - I'd been walking to his one summer evening, when I got caught in a short, but very heavy thunderstorm, and I was soaked to the skin when I arrived, even though it was only about 10 minutes. I wore his shorts because they were dry, and my clothes weren't. They were tight on my hips, but fitted. 20 years on, I couldn't wear his clothing, but that's down to me being rather more heavy than I was then. I have bought socks from the men's department, and may well do so in future. I've also bought men's jumpers, as well, and I've had men's shirts in my wardrobe before. But mostly I want clothes which are cut for a women's shape - bigger hips, bigger bust. I'm not just straight up and down.

I've also been to a black-tie do in black-tie, mostly because I couldn't find a dress I liked. I got lots of compliments. I thought then, and still do, that had a man turned up in a dress, he wouldn't have got such a positive reception as I did in a suit and bow-tie. So that is an inequality.

Last summer, one of my male colleagues did comment that I was lucky being able to wear a dress and bare legs (we don't have a strong dress code, but people have only worn shorts in the office on Fridays.) I pointed out that there was nothing actually stopping him from doing so, other than social convention. Pointed out the same when another colleague commented on my bright pink and blue trousers I wore. And they agree - but also point out social convention on some things is quite strong. I just said that someone has to be first. Pretty sure none of my colleagues will be first along that road, though. (We did have one transgender person, but she has since left the company.)

So there certainly are feminist issues around clothing, but it's not half as simple as just having a wider choice of clothes.

Haven't read the full thread yet but PP comments reminded me about this article i read recently about women's pockets in clothing

here

YY, Ebear, I don't think any of us was disagreeing with him on that first bit. It was just the surrounding explanation of how I came to be thinking about it all.

It feels to me as if butch women (I feel really uncomfortable with that term, but clearly saying 'women wearing menswear literally from the men's department, head to toe' isn't cutting it!) get ignored in most discussions about gendered clothing. That's all.

apolcalypse - ha! My partner says the pockets issue is one reason she doesn't like the lack of choice in women's jeans.

And you are doing much the same.

You seem to have no interest in discussion unless your assumption that women wearing "men's clothes" (whatever that means) get flak for doing so is accepted as some sort of standard practice.

It is demonstrably clear every day women do so with no difficulty. Have you seen the number of posters on MN in clothes about threads who say they buy men's clothes/borrow their partners? Some who say the hardly ever buy women's clothes?. The fact your friends encountered idiots does not change that.

I highlighted your comment because you stated But I think you are naive if you believe that women who wear men's clothing largely escape comment.

Goodness knows where you live OP. I'm in city in the UK in the 21st century- not rural 19th century.

You have not offended me , but like other posters have said, it is not clear what the point was.

And I did not take back anything about what happened to your friends but I do not agree what happened to them =women can't wear men's clothes.

Your friends met up with idiots- idiots who probably would have done the same if your friends had been dressed as Goths or hippies or men in dresses or any other style departing from the norm.

lass, at first you sympathised with my friends who've had negative comments.

Now you are belittling that.

It's rude.

No, I don't live in the 19th century. But - and I hate to break this to you - wearing a nicely tailored Laura Ashley suit isn't exactly what I was talking about. I can see you think that the experience gives you huge insights, but it just makes me suspect you have utterly failed to follow what I am saying.

By all means, though, continue picturing yourself as a brave warrior challenging expectations of gendered clothing if it makes you happy.

Or which they could pick on as excuse as women wearing men's clothing is not a departure from the norm

Have you walked down any high street recently? The one I was on today had loads of women wearing masculine clothing. No one was pointing or laughing.

I am not belittling what happened to your friends. I simply do not agree that you can extrapolate from it that it means women can't wear men's clothes.

Oh and as for me supposedly thinking I'm challenging gender expectations of clothing, well you clearly have not read anything I wrote either. However the large number of women I have seen this afternoon clearly are given the vast majority of them were wearing clothes which they could have swapped with their male partners.

I really can't see any point to this thread beyond you were irritated by the man in question stating a view which most people would agree with whilst at the same time not being impressed by what the young women said.

Yes, but lass, your first thought when I mentioned 'masculine clothing' was a ... woman's suit from Laura Ashley.

It's safe to say you've, shall we say, a slightly skewed idea of what butch might look like, right?

women have a much greater choice of clothes because their main purpose in society is to be ornamental :)

Haven't RTFT. Women have greater choice but have greater risk of "getting it wrong". Too short too long too prim too showy too tight too baggy and you wore it yesterday. Men have more restricted choice but people don't judge them so much on their choice. Greater choice, not greater freedom.

Also, if men want more choice why don't they fight for it? Women fought to be able to wear trousers. Women are not the ones stopping men wearing dresses.

We seem to have accepted that it is shockingly transgressive for a man to wear anything belonging to the other gender, and I wonder if that actually belittles the amount of flack I think women and girls do still get for doing exactly the same?

The above quotation is from the original OP. I don't think that people who may be appearing to disagree with you are belittling the amount of flack. Some are disagreeing that there is the same level of flack, based partly on experience. I can't know from what I have personally experienced; I dress on the more feminine end of the spectrum although I almost always wear trousers.

But I do have two women friends whose gender expression with clothing is very masculine, including wearing mostly men's clothes. Where I live, this does not seem to be an issue from what they report and what I have observed when I am out and about with them. And I live in a conservative part of the US. So, if I understand your points, OP, I think it may well depend on where you are and where you go.

Might well be, bran!

never - yes, true, women are much more likely to get negative comments.

I think that's why the argument that women get away with wearing blokey clothes when they look 'chic' or 'stylish' or get compliments, or when they just so happen to also be film stars, seems to me to be missing the point.

seneca - I am sure it does depend where you are. As I said upthread, right?

I didn't think your posts were belittling at all.

Greater choice, not greater freedom.

Well said. The sorts of choices that are commonly criticized in Style and Beauty underscore this.

Pockets are a massively gendered issue in clothing. All clothing for men's lower halves have some kind of pockets, even bloody speedos! Women's clothes, not so much.

Generally, when I was younger, I wore men's suits to formal occasions, complete with tie and Oxfords. On the whole, the initial reaction would be one of amused eye rolling or vague compliments after a while though the comments became less complimentary and more aggressive.

I also wore men's suits to work, which was fine until someone took it into their head that I was doing it just to be different and I was told not to anymore. I had to return to wearing an acceptable 'woman' uniform, which made navigating the tube an endless ordeal.

There is a kind of transgressive quality to being appreciated for wearing men's clothes as a woman very rarely, but when it becomes a thing that you do all the time, it's almost as if you cross a line.

I suspect that, if this thread were on S&B, there would be some very different views. The imposition of a uniformity of women's clothes, despite the multitude of choices open to women is strong. The rules of doing it well are arcane and buried in a cave somewhere, guarded by Cerberus.

Women's clothes are generally less well made, for equal cost because they are expected to be worn for a season and then discarded. Which, AFAIC is wasteful and wrong.

(sorry, several points in there OP, but yes, generally, I agree with you)

I agree with it depends what you do - if you work on a farm, you're likely to wear wellies, jeans, rugby shirt or t-shirt (depending on time of year), and an old jacket, whether you're male or female. Or a boiler suit and wellies.