Gendered clothing - grrr.

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

Not a new subject, I know, but I've been suffering delayed irritation due to listening to a professional mansplainer on the subject (I was a at a party full of women. He seemed to imagine we would all gather round to hear his views, and it was Very Tedious). However, his basic point was that women have it so much better than men, as men's clothing is so very boring, whereas women can wear whatever they like and no one minds.

A youngish woman pointed out, quite politely, that women's clothing is generally more expensive and poorer quality, and obviously knew what she was talking about as she makes her own clothes. And she pointed out that this also applies to so-called 'gender neutral' clothing that women wear, such as jeans or shirts - so it isn't, in fact, gender neutral at all.

I've just thought about that again as a friend posted about seeing small girls dressed in skirts struggling to enjoy soft play.

Now, I know these things are choices. You can certainly dress girl children in 'boy' clothes. You can also be an adult woman who wears men's clothing, and I know plenty of women who do. There were several women in the room at this party who were patently doing so. But it got me wondering why this bloke just assumed that it was 'easy' for women to wear men's clothes, but totally unthinkable for him to do the same? I know that a man wearing a skirt will probably get funny looks - but actually, so will a woman in a suit and tie.

We seem to have accepted that it is shockingly transgressive for a man to wear anything belonging to the other gender, and I wonder if that actually belittles the amount of flack I think women and girls do still get for doing exactly the same?

I know there is much more to the clothes debate than meets the eye but I've always thought there is an element of "grass is always greener" to it. Women get annoyed because they think men get it to easier and men think women have it better because of they have more choice.

Oh, I follow you.

What I wasn't clear was, are you saying you reckon it's just as easy for men as women, or equally varied for both?

I certainly know lots of people who aren't hampered by the things I'm mentioning here, and I salute them, and they're great. Absolutely.

I agree with you op. Yes women have more choice of clothes. But the flip side of that is the pressure for women to look and dress a certain way. Most women spend a huge amount of time and money on clothes and make up. We are judged about how we look in a way men aren't, that affects how other people see us and affects our self esteem. That's not an advantage. That's oppression.

Of course some women wear what they want without shaving but IME most don't. There's been a few times at toddler groups when we're supposed to be lifting out arms up etc for the songs and the woman next to me in a strappy top says embarrassedly "I can't do this bit, I didn't shave my arms this morning!" So ok I'm actually contradicting myself because the women were wearing strappy tops despite not shaving but then they didn't feel free to lift their arms up in a room full of two year olds and other mums! So I still think men have it easier with their clothes.

Yes Antihop I agree . The extra choice in clothing just makes more work for us and then we get ridiculed for taking too long to get ready etc.

I know an expensive suit is, well, expensive. But, I think broadly it's true that men's clothes cost less, especially when you factor in cost-per-wear.

Why should cost per wear be different? I know it is, probably because women have more choice. A man can wear the same suit for a week and it wouldn't be an issue, but a woman who wears a more noticable item (they are often more varied colours and styles) it will be noticed if they wear them two days in a row.
So higher cost per wear is a result of having more choice.
Otherwise I'm not sure women's clothing costs more than men's, certainly unisex items like jeans or t shirts are the same.

I agree men can wear the same suit for a week.

But how is that because women have more choice?

I would have been interested in hearing him say why he thought these societal pressures exist and which groups are exerting the pressures. As long as there weren't insulting or offensive slogans on clothing I couldn't give two hoots what anyone wears be they male or female.

odd - me too, but he wouldn't be drawn. The young woman who questioned him just got a repeated response of 'Oh, no, but women have more choice', as if she'd simply not heard him. I tried to challenge him too, but I think he thought if people responded, it was just because he needed to repeat himself.

*I agree men can wear the same suit for a week.

But how is that because women have more choice? confused*

I'm confused too??
Men can wear a suit for a week because it's plain and bland and nobody notices if they change it or wash it. Doesn't usually apply to women's choices.

I've always thought there is an element of "grass is always greener" to it. Women get annoyed because they think men get it to easier and men think women have it better because of they have more choice.

It's an office debate which often comes up. In hot weather men will often complain they have to wear suits, long sleeves and shoes while women can wear summer dresses and open sandals. Women often respond "there's nothing stopping you wearing the same".
The flipside is women will complain that it's alright for men, they can wear the same thing, but women have to make an effort to look good
I think there is some grass is greener to it.

I've thought about this before in several different contexts. I think there are several issues.
First, I don't understand why children's clothes are gendered. They all have the same basic body shape until puberty, there should be one section in the shops marked children IMHO. (I know that marketing has a lot to answer for in this segregating of children).
Secondly I understand that on average men and women have different body shapes and therefore there is logic to having different clothing sections for each. But even when the clothes are the same, say jeans and t-shirt, women's clothing is always much more tightly fitted (clothes can be tailored without being fitted) and tend to be made of flimsier material with fewer/smaller/useless pockets.
There is also no standard uniform for women the way there is for men. There could be, it would be just as easy for every shop to have standard suits for women as they do for men, but for some reason they don't. We expect women to have a more varied wardrobe.
Men should be able to wear things typically associated with women, just as women now wear trousers. For some reason they seem reluctant to put in the effort to make it acceptable.

I actually posted about something similar a few months ago, particularly the fact that I felt pressured to "dress up" for work by wearing skirts, dresses etc. I mentioned that I'd previously been told by a superior that I needed to make more of an effort because I was wearing items on a weekly basis (I pretty much had a Monday look, Tuesday look etc)

Anyway, after a bit of a talking to on here I realised that a lot of the pressure was coming from me because I'd internalised other people's expectations, and actually the vast majority of people wouldn't give a damn what I was wearing as long as I looked smart.

So for the last 3-4 months I've worn trousers, sensible shoes and shirts/blouses to the office. I had a few comments in the first week, but most people didn't blink and it's certainly a lot easier - I imagine that a man trying to do the reverse would have a lot harder time, so in that sense I think that women do have a greater variety of options of clothing.

However, in terms of cost of clothing I'd say that women's tends to be more expensive than men's, and that where it isn't (e.g. suiting) it's because the men's options are more expensive because they're better made and use better fabrics. Men's clothing is generally made with better quality fabrics too (because women need to wear polyester for the drapey look apparently) and it's possible to find warm jumpers for men, whereas jumpers for women always end up being "slim fitting" i.e. thin and no bloody good.

MrN - oh, gosh, I definitely notice when men wear the same suit. Who doesn't?

I thought the point was that it was considered acceptable.

Where I first worked, most women wore office dresses or suits in shades of grey and dark blue (or occasionally black or brown). So did the men. But the women always wore different ones each day, and the men didn't.

I never found it hard to distinguish between the clothes worn by men or women, but clearly it was considered ok for men to keep wearing the same suits.

But broadly, lass is right that often, it's no easier an option for women to cross-dress than it is for men

I'm struggling to see what is so wonderful about some form of unisex shapeless garment which will fit male and female body types.

I never found it hard to distinguish between the clothes worn by men or women, but clearly it was considered ok for men to keep wearing the same suits

Is it ok ? I think it's a bit grubby if someone, whether man or woman , is wearing the same suit or dress every day. My husband has always had as an absolute bare minimum a different suit for every day of the week. He would never wear the same suit, shirt or tie 2 days running.

I'm struggling to see what is so wonderful about some form of unisex shapeless garment which will fit male and female body types.

YY, exactly. Yet people like this bloke still imagine that women have more choice.

I (privately) find the re-worn suits a bit minging too, but I don't think MrN is actually wrong about the way a lot of men - and women - feel here.

But isn't that what you are arguing for? That you don't want gendered clothes?

Women do have far more choice in what they can wear.

There is also no standard uniform for women the way there is for men. There could be, it would be just as easy for every shop to have standard suits for women as they do for men, but for some reason they don't. We expect women to have a more varied wardrobe

Well firstly every high street shop does have a standard office wear range - you will pay a bit more in say Max Mara or Jaeger or Hobbs than you would in say Zara.

Secondly who "expects" this? This is always a given. I've never , at work found there is any expectation beyond being neat and clean and not scaring the clients.

Thirdly - how boring to be limited to a standard uniform.

No - I'm the OP, lass.

I was saying that this man I met seemed to think that women have more choice in clothes than men, because women can and routinely do wear men's clothes. Whereas, as you're pointing out (and as others say), in fact, few women can wear actual men's clothes, and so-called 'gender-neutral' clothing is often not very appealing to either sex.

As a result, women's choices are actually quite constrained, but there's still a perception that women have a huge amount of choice and freedom, while men don't. It's that idea that I'm finding a bit perplexing.

Is that what he meant robin? I would take it to mean that women have more choice in the stuff they can where. Trousers, skirts, dresses, those weird long short things.

Yes, that's what he meant - he completely ignored the woman who tried to talk to him about what that might mean, and kept repeating that women have things 'better' because we have 'more choice'.

He seemed determined he was right, but I thought she had a very valid point that he just wouldn't even address.

I'm still unsure what you're trying to say OP (though I may just be being thick!)

I think women certainly have more choice. No one would bat an eye land if I went out in my husbands baggy jeans, skate shoes and hoody. But he went out in my white skinnies, low cut sparkly black top and heeled boots there would be up roar! I as a woman, can wear absolutely anything and it wouldn't be seen as odd. And as for physical choice, just go to your local high street and see how much clothing for women there is compared to men's.

I'm sure you're not being thick!

Someone else upthread pointed out that some clothing - like hoodies, and some jeans - is genuinely quite unisex. But wouldn't that be equally true for your DH? If he went out wearing (say) a green hoodie you bought, with a pair of your bog-standard ASDA straight up-and-down jeans, would he look very odd?

But most clothing that is gendered, is not also unisex. If you went out wearing a suit tailored for a man, with a tie, I think perhaps you would get some looks? Perhaps not.

Equally, I suspect your DH would get some looks if he went out in your skinny jeans and sparkly top - but then, that is also gendered clothing, isn't it?

What I'm confused about is why we think there's a huge gender difference in terms of responses to women wearing men's clothes, and men wearing women's clothes. I just don't see so much evidence for it.

As a result, women's choices are actually quite constrained, but there's still a perception that women have a huge amount of choice and freedom, while men don't. It's that idea that I'm finding a bit perplexing

I'm completely perplexed by how you can think women don't have far more freedom and choice in what to wear.

A youngish woman pointed out, quite politely, that women's clothing is generally more expensive and poorer quality, and obviously knew what she was talking about as she makes her own clothes

That statement is a sweeping generality and is meaningless. Based on what evidence? And what has the fact she makes her own clothes got to do with it?

I agree with Umbongo I'm really struggling to see what your point is.