Gendered clothing - grrr.

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

Not a new subject, I know, but I've been suffering delayed irritation due to listening to a professional mansplainer on the subject (I was a at a party full of women. He seemed to imagine we would all gather round to hear his views, and it was Very Tedious). However, his basic point was that women have it so much better than men, as men's clothing is so very boring, whereas women can wear whatever they like and no one minds.

A youngish woman pointed out, quite politely, that women's clothing is generally more expensive and poorer quality, and obviously knew what she was talking about as she makes her own clothes. And she pointed out that this also applies to so-called 'gender neutral' clothing that women wear, such as jeans or shirts - so it isn't, in fact, gender neutral at all.

I've just thought about that again as a friend posted about seeing small girls dressed in skirts struggling to enjoy soft play.

Now, I know these things are choices. You can certainly dress girl children in 'boy' clothes. You can also be an adult woman who wears men's clothing, and I know plenty of women who do. There were several women in the room at this party who were patently doing so. But it got me wondering why this bloke just assumed that it was 'easy' for women to wear men's clothes, but totally unthinkable for him to do the same? I know that a man wearing a skirt will probably get funny looks - but actually, so will a woman in a suit and tie.

We seem to have accepted that it is shockingly transgressive for a man to wear anything belonging to the other gender, and I wonder if that actually belittles the amount of flack I think women and girls do still get for doing exactly the same?

I don't want to derail, but it does seem relevant on some level. Why do so many schools in the UK make girls wear ties?

Hate to break this to you seneca

But i would get some nasty looks in a sheath dress and high heels

You seem to be making a few assumptions about what he may or may not have been thinking.

I guess what I struggled with, in the original conversation with this bloke, was that I think he didn't really even think about the possibility of women wearing men's clothes. He was thinking about women wearing clothes that were once seen as traditionally masculine, or clothes with a masculine vibe

Why ? Isn't it more likely he was just thinking "women can wear trousers and shorts". I doubt he was pondering whether it was "men's trousers" or "trousers tailored for women". Does it matter? He is still correct and demonstrably correct about the variety available to women - unlike the young woman's statement about the price and quality of clothes.

Is that the equivalent though, seneca?

I get looks when I show up in a sheathe dress and 4 inch heels. It'd be odd, surely, if a man didn't too? Whereas a man in a suit is unremarkable.

lass - YY, definitely trying to work out what he was thinking! This is why I started the thread - because he wouldn't engage, just kept repeating himself.

Do you really not find it interesting at all, why he'd think these things?

Well Rufus you are the one who said people would point and look at you in your husband's suit.

I would look ridiculous in my husband's suits. Most women would look ridiculous if they turned up for work in a man's suit that was too big for them.

Ok, but leaving aside the issue of a suit being too big for a moment - if a woman happens to have the figure such that she can wear a man's suit, what then?

Why do so many schools in the UK make girls wear ties?

Don't know, beyond the fact it does look smart with a blazer and avoids décolletage? My school did and the girls at my son's school wore ties.


OK, so no sheath dress and high heels, though that seems to be what a lot of women are wearing these days (not me, I almost always wear pants trousers). Just any old skirt, say. He'll still get looks.

I agree, I think ties are seen as 'smart' on girls. Though oddly, not so much on adult women.

seneca - yes, he will. But so will a woman in a man's suit, I think? So, I guess what I am wondering is, where's the point at which it becomes 'acceptable' to wear something? Why are hoodies gender-neutral (and genuinely so, not, as lass points out, something that doesn't actually fit either gender well) when suits/skirts aren't?

Ok, but leaving aside the issue of a suit being too big for a moment - if a woman happens to have the figure such that she can wear a man's suit, what then?

Then she is wearing a suit which fits her? What is the big deal about that?

Check the website for St.Harridan - there are suits on their. Although even they are masculine suits tailored for women.

I'm not getting why you are fixated on the importance of it being a "man's suit"

lass - YY, I know that site.

I hope I don't come across as fixated on it, and I'm really sorry if I've offended you in some way. I was just wondering about the responses I've seen people getting. It wasn't at all meant to be suggesting something negative about women who dress like this and I am now worried I've come across that way. Good friends of mine wear men's suits, and my partner wears some men's clothing, so I'm really not trying to suggest anything bad. I was just curious how this particular man seemed to think that women would never get any sort of reaction for wearing men's clothing, and I wondered what it suggested.

I think he is on the whole right. Women wearing masculine clothing, whether genuine male clothing or adapted for female bodies, don't get anything like the reaction a man in dress would. Even on MN , which is about as liberal and open to seeing other people's points of view as you are going to get, I've seen very hostile comments to the idea of men or boys wearing feminine clothes.

Yes lass i did

But in my case it would be in a "god she looks fabulous way"

Obs

I think that one main difference is that the greater choices women have for gender expression come in part through the aspects of feminism that have focused on women gaining rights equal to those of men. On university campuses in the US in the 60s and early 70s, the issues were very much a part of the broader issue of women students being treated differently than the men. The university had an in loco parentis relationship to the women but not the men. So women had curfews and restrictions on what they could wear. At my college during my first year, if we had shorts on, which of course could not be worn to class, we had to wear a coat over them while walking from place to place on campus. In Louisiana, I might add, which might just be the hottest place I have ever lived. As the women's movement took hold, the activism became all about treating us the same as the men and our clothing choices became part of that.

Agree with lass re school girls in ties

Which Looks wrong now i have typed it

Dh suit would be much too small for me ...both girth and length

robins

I think its good to ponder, i dont think you have been offensive

Well I apologise if I offended you Rufus. It was not obvious that was what you meant.

And most of these American colleges and universities had an office called Dean of Women, whose job it was to enforce these rules.

You know i am teasing dont you lass

I think women have much more choice of what to wear but i have no patience with men complaining about it when women have had and do have to fight to wear trousers

It's good to ponder but I doubt if he meant much more than he looked round the room and saw women wearing a variety of clothes and there not being the same options for men.

There was a thread about would you rather be a man to which my answer was hell no. This would one reason why not.

Men in my office complain every summer about this. Even if they don't want to wear summer dresses there are plenty of options for smart tailored linen and cotton suits but most of them don't.

Thanks rufus.

lass - I've agreed with you all along that's what he meant, though?

I don't understand how I've offended you. Clearly there is something I've said wrongly, and I'm sorry about that, but I really can't follow what it is you think I've said that is different from anything you've admitted is true yourself.

You haven't offended me. And to be honest I'm not following your line of thought. What have I admitted is true?

I don't agree with your comment about the amount of flack women and girls get for dressing in a masculine style. It is nothing compared to what men would get (unless they claimed to be transgender and frankly I suspect in the real world transgender men get plenty of pointing and staring too)

I don't see what there was in what he said that is wrong nor do I think there was anything wrong in his not being impressed by the price/quality comment.

Why do so many schools in the UK make girls wear ties?

When I went to school, back in the mists of time (25 years ago), boys had to wear ties, girls didn't.
Same with blazers, which had been compulsory for both but had been dropped for girls.

Dd wears a blazer and tie

What annoys me is that all the blazers both boys and girls are cut for boys

Dds is HUGE on her...she likes it though

(To be honest it completely covers her figure...unlike her skirts so i am not going to winge about it. )