Gendered clothing - grrr.

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

Not a new subject, I know, but I've been suffering delayed irritation due to listening to a professional mansplainer on the subject (I was a at a party full of women. He seemed to imagine we would all gather round to hear his views, and it was Very Tedious). However, his basic point was that women have it so much better than men, as men's clothing is so very boring, whereas women can wear whatever they like and no one minds.

A youngish woman pointed out, quite politely, that women's clothing is generally more expensive and poorer quality, and obviously knew what she was talking about as she makes her own clothes. And she pointed out that this also applies to so-called 'gender neutral' clothing that women wear, such as jeans or shirts - so it isn't, in fact, gender neutral at all.

I've just thought about that again as a friend posted about seeing small girls dressed in skirts struggling to enjoy soft play.

Now, I know these things are choices. You can certainly dress girl children in 'boy' clothes. You can also be an adult woman who wears men's clothing, and I know plenty of women who do. There were several women in the room at this party who were patently doing so. But it got me wondering why this bloke just assumed that it was 'easy' for women to wear men's clothes, but totally unthinkable for him to do the same? I know that a man wearing a skirt will probably get funny looks - but actually, so will a woman in a suit and tie.

We seem to have accepted that it is shockingly transgressive for a man to wear anything belonging to the other gender, and I wonder if that actually belittles the amount of flack I think women and girls do still get for doing exactly the same?

What annoys me is that all the blazers both boys and girls are cut for boys

In my 6th Year (last secondary year in Scotland) when I needed a new blazer my mother bought one buttoning on the boy's side as it would do for my little brother.

Although on the other hand my son happily wore a Harris tweed hacking jacket of mine which buttoned on the girl's side.

I'm glad you're not offended. Ok, so here is what I understood:

This bloke was saying women have so much choice in clothes. He meant (clearly) in terms of styles and items and colours, men have quite a restricted range of clothes made for them, whereas many clothes made for women are quite varied.

This young woman suggested that men's clothes are often better made and cheaper - so she was talking about clothes in the men's section, which women rarely wear much of.

You point out that there are many clothes made for women, which have a masculine aesthetic - like your own dinner suit, or the classic suits worn by stars like Dietrich. You point out that clothes from the actual men's section rarely fit women well (as we've said, there are exceptions in some casual clothing, like hoodies, but not in smart clothes). You also point out that so-called 'gender neutral' clothing is often awful for both genders.

So, women don't often actually wear men's clothing.

Some women do - I have friends and a partner who do, for example - and you also mention a site aimed partly at transmen, but also at women who like this aesthetic. The clothes there are made for women, but look much closer to actual men's clothing that the mainstream stuff tailored for women with a mild masculine aesthetic (like Dietrich's suits).

These women, IME, do attract looks and comments quite a bit. But we tend, I think, to exclude them mentally from consideration when we talk about women wearing men's clothes, because we've come to think of 'men's clothes' in that context as meaning 'women's clothes, but those that used to be associated with men'.

I wondered why we do this - or at least, why this bloke ended up talking cross purposes with a young woman.

As someone who mostly wears mens clothes (and shoes but don't get me started on that!) - my male academic colleagues who wear suits have it easy. They buy a set of three or four identical suits every few years, a range of shirts and ties, job done. The 'female choice' thing is an illusion in that the supposedly greater choice females have is actually just the flip side of women expected to spend time and effort on their choice of outfit and how they look.But then the whole female choice con becomes crystal clear to me when I look at the shoes many women wear every day. Men just get to wear shoes that don't cripple your feet, tend to keep them dry, support the foot, made of decent leather, and they have sandals as well! Which is why I have worn nothing but mens shoes for the past thirty years. If women's supposed wide choice of high heels and stupidly shaped shoes with no support was so fabulous, men would be wearing them.
Once I was brave enough to go into the mens section, I've never looked back. And when I was at a wedding one straight woman with aching feet finally got the women in sensible shoes crack about dykes!

So, women don't often actually wear men's clothing

So you keep saying. I'm still failing to see what the big deal is and what your point is.

Some women do wear men's clothes. If they fit are you seriously suggesting women get flak for this? The distinction between men's clothes, because we've come to think of 'men's clothes' in that context as meaning 'women's clothes, but those that used to be associated with men' in the context of say jeans and a plain sweatshirt seems well into angels dancing on pinhead territory.

You also point out that so-called 'gender neutral' clothing is often awful for both genders Did I? I don't recall saying anything about gender neutral clothes beyond what you seemed to be arguing for was some sort of gender neutral sack which would accommodate all body types.

We will have to agree to differ. I'm really failing to see what point you are making beyond possibly you took a dislike to this man. I completely agree with him that women have a far wider choice of clothes.

So far as the young woman's comment which he ignored -unless she has carried out research in men's and women's departments of all price ranges her comment is nothing more than her personal opinion.

Indeed , thinking about it from my own experience of my and my husband's clothes I have jackets and coats which are over 20 years old - he hasn't. I have several pairs of shoes which are over 10 years old - he hasn't. I don't buy high street /chain store clothes - he does occasionally and then complains a lot about how they don't last and how badly made they are compared to more up market versions.

They buy a set of three or four identical suits every few years, a range of shirts and ties, job done.

Pretty much like the plain black or grey skirt or trouser suit and white shirt which has been the staple wardrobe in every law office I've worked in. It's not for everyone, definitely not me, but plenty of women do this.

Yes, I think women who wear men's clothes do get flack. I've seen people yelling dyke, or sniggering, or just teasing.

You did say yourself, in several posts, that what women often wear is clothing tailored to a masculine aesthetic - which I agreed with. But I'm not sure why you're getting preoccupied with that point? We could just agree it's true, and move on?

I don't think mocking the responses women get for wearing men's clothing is acceptable. Your phrase 'are you seriously suggesting ...' comes across as quite combative to me. I'm not sure why you are taking this tone, when you've already demonstrated my points for me at length?

I'm confused
I dont think I'm paying more for jeans, trousers, t shirts, than men.

Ive also never heard of women getting flack for "dressing like men" but I may be confused about what means. I don't see jeans and t shirts as make clothing?

My social circle is one where no one would mind a man wearing a dress or skirt.

SomeDyke, what you say about your make colleagues is how I do work wear, along with many other women. I do buy shoes for women but my feet are tiny. I on,y have comfy supportive shoes so I've not thought to look at men's shoes.

Not read thread but I often comment to dp that it's so much easier for him to get dressed in the morning than me.

Tops trousers that's it. Everything goes with everything else.

I find dressing a real chore.
Bras, underwear, length style, socks/ tights, shoes and bags, it takes a lot of emotional energy!

Light Emotional energy? It really as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. Most mornings I'm up and out - jeans, top and coat. I'd rather stay in bed for as long as possible but I used to enjoy waking up a bit earlier to choose a 'look' when I fancied it, and still do when I can be bothered with it.

lorelei - fair enough about price. I have had that experience when I've been shopping with DP and we look at clothes in the womenswear department and then the men's, but I expect it's different in different places.

I agree with you jeans and T shirts aren't male clothing. That was what I was saying all through the thread. Women often wear clothing that was once seen as 'masculine'. Women less often actually go to the menswear department and shop there (though some do). IME, women who wear menswear do get a certain amount of negative attention. So too do men who wear womenswear - not everywhere, of course, and some people are very tolerant.

But what I find interesting is that I think people tend to compare the social impact of a man in a skirt, with the impact of a woman in trousers, and they're not quite comparing apples with apples, right?

Robins, if you're saying you don't understand why it's not acceptable, in schools, offices etc for men to wear skirts, I agree, it should be acceptable and I don't know why it's not.

But is that what you are trying to say? I'm a bit lost.

Light, I agree about bras being a pain but I just buy them in a job lot. Other than that, I put as much as effort as your DP does unto dressing. I can't imagine spending emotional energy on it! I do think grooming standards are getting higher for women in offices and that is a great shame.

Sorry, lorelei.

I wasn't trying to say it should be acceptable for men to wear skirts, though that is something I do feel.

I was talking about women who wear menswear - ie., clothes from the men's section. I think that is still something that attracts negative attention. I can believe some of that negative attention might be because men's clothes don't always fit women, but I don't think that is the entire issue.

But the negative responses women wearing menswear get, don't often seem to get discussed. We often talk about how men wearing skirts can face prejudice and teasing. But we tend to assume women have the choice to wear anything they like, and so we ignore that side of things.

I should say, I am absolutely not trying to belittle the oppression and prejudice men face, and I apologise to you as well as to lass that this may be how my OP came across, by suggesting that women may face struggles too. It's just ... I do think it is maybe worth considering women, as well as men, in this context? Rather than just talking as if women can choose anything they like without constraints of any kind?

I'm still completely lost as to what your points were OP so the fact I've demonstrated them is a bit of a surprise.

However if you think there is tolerance for men wearing women's clothes I recall a thread about transvestites on AIBU shortly after I joined which gives the lie to that.There was a fairly nasty example a couple of weeks ago on here too.

As for being preoccupied, you have mentioned women wearing men's clothes several times. I don't follow at all why it is so important to distinguish whether a pair of jeans is a man's pair or a woman's pair.

Robin, I'm really trying to understand this so please bear with me.

I do own a man's tux jacket and I wear it and I'm not aware that anyone has even noticed it is from the men's section.

I feel as if you're saying women can't walk around in men's t shirts or men's shoes and many of us are saying, yes, they can and frequently do. I have never ever had a negative response. I domt think I've worn a skirt since school. What is this negative response you refer to?

If anything I feel more like Her Madge "but for a boy to look like a girl is degrading, because you think being a girl is degrading".

Also, when with a partner I was constantly borrowing shirts with cuff links, I just happen to like those. It's not unusual to see that though.

Sorry cross posted. Apologies for my last post which is a bit grumpy. We will have to park this. I don't agree women face the same constraints on what is acceptable for them to wear.

Husband and I could theoretically go to the Levis shop, buy the same pair of jeans in our respective sizes, buy the same sweatshirt in our respective sizes , buy the same jean jacket in our respective sizes, put them on , walk out of the shop (and apart from the double denim fashion crime) no one would notice or care.

If we popped in to Zara and bought the same dress and cardigan in our respective sizes , put them on and walked out how far do you think we would get before the first sniggering?

lass - no, I've said the opposite.

lorelei - it's what I said upthread. I have several friends who wear men's clothes. Not just the odd item, or relatively unisex things like jeans, but whole suits, and they do get teased and have things yelled at them.

I was curious whether or not this was an experience others had seen, or had, or wanted to talk about.

Does that make more sense?

I wonder how common it actually is for someone of one sex to wear the other clothes? I think it's probably more common than we realise. Especially for things like jeans, T-Shirts and hoodies. I know of a few men wearing jeans from the women's section for example. Skinny jeans or "boyfriend" jeans I'm not sure you could tell.

I work for a large clothing company and the demand for the default cut t shirt are huge compared to t shirt cut for women. I can't imagine the company I work for selling such large numbers of t-shirts just to one sex. It probably helps that the default T-shirt goes from something like XXS to 6XXL

Robin, sorry I missed that.

Never had anyone shout or had any experience of it reported to me, hopefully your friends have just been unlucky.

I'm with a few exceptions a very girly girl in clothes (I may have to name change after saying that ). My tuxedo suit was tailored for a woman but the visual effect was I was wearing a dinner suit. The jacket was narrow shouldered but not waisted. I never got anything but compliments.

I can think of 2 young women I know who wear suits. Not lawyers office style suits but Reservoir Dog style black suits with Converse/Van/Docs style footwear. I'm not aware of them experiencing the problems you have described. I see the occasional women in a suit around and they seem to be fine too.

I don't want to belittle what your friends experienced which is awful and wrong but there is a tradition of female cross dressing from the Victorian "mashers" onwards which I think gives a woman in a suit an edge/a sense of an individual style which doesn't work the other way round for men.( I appreciate men's lesbian fantasies play a part)

Your friends might have had to deal with the sort of neanderthal who if they didn't have that to pick on would have found something else to pick on rather than a general antipathy to women in suits.

I find it hard to believe that the average person would even notice that a woman was wearing a tshirt, jeans, hoody from the mans section tbh. It would, however, stand out if a man wore the same from the womens sections.

Womens jeans, for example, have a shorter area between fly and crotch, the seat tends to be a little more snug too. They also have more stretch (on the whole) than mens jeans which are quite rigid with little room for movement.
Womens Shirts are cut much smaller across the shoulders than a mans equivalent.
womens Tshirts, IME, have a much lower neck line, much shorter sleeves and hug the torso far more than a male equivalent.
Womens hoodies are okay to wear as a man but the arms seem to be shorter than a male equivalent, i can see why ladies with longer arms would pick a mans hoody tbh.
As for footwear, mens styles are quite limited in a lot of ways, colours and styles are all a bit black or brown, iyswim. Where as shoes from the womens section come in various widths, heel heights, colours yadda yadda. (Women can also where quite awesome knee high boots little to no eye brow raising, where as a man can't without getting the usual comments)

It seems, and this is purely in my experience, that women on average have a huge range of choices in the womens department and can add in the mens section at times too, where as men have the mans section with nothing being added by the average guy from the womens section.
(Not that the average man would even dream of wearing something from the womens section)

I appreciate you saying you don't want to belittle it, lass.

But I think you just don't really get it. You still seem to think that you wearing a woman's suit is somehow similar, and it's just not really, is it? Especially if, as you say, you are quite 'girly' in the way you dress.

I am glad to know you've friends who've had positive experiences, and I take your point there are some people (men and women, I think?) who will use any excuse to be rude to someone else. But I think you are naive if you believe that women who wear men's clothing largely escape comment. I would think you've heard of it happening, even if you've never seen it?

If my friends are 'just unlucky', or if people really don't notice women who wear menswear, how come 'butch' is still an insult? Or how come there are so many threads on MN about women who worry about people mistaking their boys for girls or their girls for boys?