Gendered clothing - grrr.

[RobinsAreTerritorialFuckers]

Not a new subject, I know, but I've been suffering delayed irritation due to listening to a professional mansplainer on the subject (I was a at a party full of women. He seemed to imagine we would all gather round to hear his views, and it was Very Tedious). However, his basic point was that women have it so much better than men, as men's clothing is so very boring, whereas women can wear whatever they like and no one minds.

A youngish woman pointed out, quite politely, that women's clothing is generally more expensive and poorer quality, and obviously knew what she was talking about as she makes her own clothes. And she pointed out that this also applies to so-called 'gender neutral' clothing that women wear, such as jeans or shirts - so it isn't, in fact, gender neutral at all.

I've just thought about that again as a friend posted about seeing small girls dressed in skirts struggling to enjoy soft play.

Now, I know these things are choices. You can certainly dress girl children in 'boy' clothes. You can also be an adult woman who wears men's clothing, and I know plenty of women who do. There were several women in the room at this party who were patently doing so. But it got me wondering why this bloke just assumed that it was 'easy' for women to wear men's clothes, but totally unthinkable for him to do the same? I know that a man wearing a skirt will probably get funny looks - but actually, so will a woman in a suit and tie.

We seem to have accepted that it is shockingly transgressive for a man to wear anything belonging to the other gender, and I wonder if that actually belittles the amount of flack I think women and girls do still get for doing exactly the same?

Ok I think I kind of see what you're getting at. Yes he could get away with wearing a few items of my clothing as I have lots of plain hoodies, tshirts and jeans. But I also have a lot of girly clothing. But as a previous poster said, I couldn't just wear an actual mans suit because the cut is so different. I could wear a suit and tie but it would have to be cinched in at the waist, and the shoulders made smaller because o have a very feminine shape and would look ridiculous. As any gender would look ridiculous in ill fitting clothing.

lass, a statement qualified with 'generally' usually is a generality, surely?

It's not meaningless, though. The fact this woman is experienced in making clothes suggests she probably does understand something about making clothes.

I thought it was telling that she was ignored.

I am afraid I'm equally confused by your replies. You seem to be saying that, because you - a woman - wear women's clothes, therefore women have lots of choices to wear ... women's clothes.

I know that's true.

What I am questioning is, can women wear men's clothes - actual men's clothes - with complete impunity? This man who spoke to us seemed to think they could, and that men, by contrast, could never conceivably wear women's clothes.

I can imagine there are all sorts of nuanced differences between the gendered expectations, but I do not see how you wearing a suit from Laura Ashley is showing me that women can wear men's suits?

If you went out wearing a suit tailored for a man, with a tie, I think perhaps you would get some looks? Perhaps not

Well as I've already pointed out clothes tailored for a man would not fit , so unless the woman in question was very boyish she'd probably just look as if she's wearing clothes that don't fit.

That's not a huge conspiracy to do women down - mens' and womens' bodies are different shapes. If the suit were tailored for a woman (no matter how superficislly masculine it might appear) I don't think you'd get odd looks at all- quite the contrary- think Marlene Dietrich, Bianca Jagger, YSL dinner suits or even me in my Laura Ashley dinner suit.

It's not meaningless, though. The fact this woman is experienced in making clothes suggests she probably does understand something about making clothes

So what? That still has no bearing on the price of clothes in shops. Her statement is a sweeping generality. I love clothes, I spend a lot of money on clothes. I have no idea whatsoever about the price or quality of clothes, mens' or womens' in high street shops. Unless she has done comprehensive research on mens and womens clothes at all price ranges it is a meaningless statement.

I thought it was telling that she was ignored
I would ignore it too.

What I am questioning is, can women wear men's clothes - actual men's clothes - with complete impunity? This man who spoke to us seemed to think they could, and that men, by contrast, could never conceivably wear women's clothes

Of course they can. Do you think people stare and point if women are wearing jeans not bought in the men's section? I never bought girls jeans.

The constraint is, which you seem to ignore ,is that some mens clothes are made to fit mens bodies and will not fit or be comfortable on a woman's body. That is why I mentioned shapeless unisex garments. My tailored shirt won't fit my husband and vice versa.

lass

You are agreeing with OP

Man said "women can wear any clothes they like"

Op said "women can only wear womens clothes without getting funny looks"

Lass said "women cant wear mens clothes as they are cut differently for different body shapes"

So op and you are both saying that women cant wear mens clothes, so women cant wear any clothes they like

(I hope...otherwise i am going to look a complete tit and will have to hide the thread)

Cross post

Fuckme but i am a slow typer!!!

So op and you are both saying that women cant wear mens clothes, so women cant wear any clothes they like

I am notagreeing with the OP. If by "men's clothes" the OP means clothes cut for mens bodies -why would a woman want to wear clothes which don't fit?

There is nothing whatsoever stopping any women wearing mens jeans or shirts or jackets if they fit. No one will notice or care.

There is nothing whatsoever stopping women wearing jeans or shirts or trousers cut for a woman's body shape.

I am saying "can't" wear men's clothes because of physical reasons why not.

OP seems to be using can'tin the sense of can't due to societal pressure.

Or to put it another way when I wore jeans I bought men's Levis. No one pointed and laughed. I have a couple of very loose shift dresses , they would fit my husband. People would point and laugh if he wore them.

lass

Men can wear womens skinny jeans

And ? What does that add to the discussion?. It's exactly the same point as women wearing men's jeans - if they fit no one notices or cares. Some of my dresses might fit my husband but he'd get very funny looks.

I agree with the man who was dismissed as mansplaining. Women have a far greater choice of what they can wear, including the ability to wear "actual men's clothes " or female cut versions of men's clothes and nobody cares.

How come your "i wore mens jeans " is relevant and my "men wear womens jeans" isn't relevant?

Or sorry...doesn't add to the discussion

I agree with the man who was dismissed as mansplaining. Women have a far greater choice of what they can wear, including the ability to wear "actual men's clothes " or female cut versions of men's clothes and nobody cares.

But why have women greater choice?

Because women fought for it.

Instead of complaining, he should get off his lazy ass and buy himself a skirt.

I'm a bit confused by this thread and just beginning to get into the wine after a long day at work, but I'll wade in because I find it all very interesting. I think that women do have far greater choice regarding gender expression in their clothing choices, and perhaps that's what the mansplainer was thinking about. I'm an old second wave feminist and I was there when we were all fighting for the right to wear trousers, etc.

When I started university in the States, women students had to wear skirts or dresses. It was a rule. It had to do with the notion of being ladylike and traditional notions of how women were supposed to present themselves. (It seems that quite a few schools in the UK, including some state schools, still enforce this type of gender expression for pupils with school uniform.) Activism changed this so that by the time I graduated, these rules were no longer in force, but it took a while for full social acceptance to happen. During this time frame, I did my Junior (third of four) year at a university in Scotland. There were no rules requiring it, but most all women wore dresses or skirts. I recently came across some old photos of me and some friends on the top of Arthur's Seat, all wearing skirts. I seriously doubt that happens often these days.

But men have not really managed to make progress with being able to wear types of clothing that traditionally were worn only by women. I wonder sometimes if men had greater freedom in this regard, perhaps fewer would identify as transgender.

Instead of complaining, he should get off his lazy ass and buy himself a skirt.

Yeah, and this.

rufus, I thought lass was saying that too - that is why I am confused. She seems to me to be illustrating my point. But maybe I expressed it in a way that's not very clear!

I think probably seneca's terminology is probably what I should have used. I agree women's clothing has a greater range in terms of gendered expression. It was just that when you're talking about the literal clothes from the men's section vs. clothes from the women's section, I don't think there is such a huge gap as is often made out? Precisely because of issues like fit, and also issues to do with the way a woman in a man's suit (an actual man's suit, not a woman's suit that has trousers) looks.

I think a woman wearing a man's suit with a tie - even if she has broad shoulders and a boyish or mannish figure, will often attract comment, much as a man wearing a skirt will, even if he has a feminine type of body. But I got the impression this man didn't realise that.

The point this young woman was making was that he benefits from clothing made, on the whole, to a higher standard and for less money. He was saying, in effect, that this wasn't relevant as she could easily just buy in the menswear section. I don't think for many women this would be very easy. And I got the impression this particular man just hadn't really thought about that.

I absolutely agree with you robin

i am not looking at it as "poor little women" "evil patriarchy" way but purely as a
"If i wore my husbands suit to work would people point and make comments" way

I agree that it would happen to a man in a skirt as well...but it would absolutely happen to women

But what if a woman showed up wearing chinos and a button down collar shirt? This would not elicit comment at all (at least in the US), but there was a time in living memory (well, my living memory) when it would have.

How come your "i wore mens jeans " is relevant and my "men wear womens jeans" isn't relevant?

They are the same point. The clothes fit both sexes so don't look odd on either sex.

As far as I can make out from the OP her complaint is women can't wear what she calls "actual men's clothes". Well that's because "actual men's clothes" are designed to fit "actual men's bodies"

What is the problem with that?

Yes, which is interesting in itself, seneca. And equally, I would say a man wearing a pink shirt would not be remarkable, but my dad would never wear one - in his generation and his background, it'd just be something you wouldn't do.

I find it fascinating how all these things shift about. Actually, earlier today I was watching If These Walls Could Talk 2 (which is much better than the name suggests!) and has a segment with Michelle Williams falling for Chloe Sevigny. Williams' character is a 70s feminist whose friends all judge her for dating a woman who dresses like a man, because they see it as being an outdated stereotype and bad feminism.

I guess what I struggled with, in the original conversation with this bloke, was that I think he didn't really even think about the possibility of women wearing men's clothes. He was thinking about women wearing clothes that were once seen as traditionally masculine, or clothes with a masculine vibe.

Cross post.

lass, no, I'm not complaining. I'm just curious why this man reacted as he did, and what it says about our assumptions about gendered clothing.

I never said women can't wear actual men's clothes. I actually say, in my OP, that I know plenty of women who do.

"If i wore my husbands suit to work would people point and make comments" way

Yes , people would probably react in that way because your husband has a different body shape. You would probably look like a clown.

If you got a tailor to run you up a suit which was made for you mimicing a masculine suit I very much doubt you would get odd looks . You would probably would be complimented on your style.

I wonder if that's true, lass?

I have a gorgeous and stylish friend who gets her suits from men's shops and has then taken in. She absolutely does get looks - it is a very specific aesthetic. I think she looks amazing.

OTOH, if she were to wear suits that had a slight masculine vibe - like Dietrich used to wear - that would probably be different. That's quite a trendy look, isn't it?

How very dare you lass

As a boring aside once for a fancy dress party (when i was very slim and very young) i wore my husbands suit, i had to wear the trousers on my hips (as dh is shorter than me) but i looked awesome

I now weigh 2 stone more than him, still 2 inches taller and have no doubt that i would look shit

But still lass

The woman in a man's suit and tie might get looks, but those looks wouldn't be anything like the looks a man would get if he showed up in a sheath dress with 4 in. heels.

Clown