New anti-trans legislation in North Carolina

[SlowFJH]

Of course it's been driven by the religious right wing. But it does aim to achieve what many posters here appear to advocate - namely that biological males can only use men's toilets and changing rooms etc. Biological females must only use women's toilets and changing rooms. Will it gain wider support?

Bombardier
Because thats what liberal / tolerant / progressive people are up against when it comes to the people who pass laws like this. Don't fall into the trap of associating with them. It will damage the image of feminism.

People use bathrooms to pee and poo. Banning them for what the might do is absolutely prejudiced.

I just dont understand at all. Is this how you think? This person doesnt like A, therefore their opinions on Bcdefg ... are all anathema to me too? Or do you imagine this to be a civil rights crusade on a par with the black rights movement? Or do you actually see sex segregation as being the same as racial segregation?

What am I arguing for? That feminists need to get on the side of decency, fairness and tolerance and come out against this insanely bigoted law.

You need to reexamine your logic. Your arguments are actually for sex neutrality imo. Start campaigning for gender neutral spaces only. Bathrooms are places for physical functions.

Bombardier I am against pre-judging people for whatever reason.

It's bigoted to reduce being female to a feeling.

Surely the point is that male violence is an issue for women - whether cis or tw.

I know I'm not the only woman who had been sexually assaulted in a (female only) toilet, by a man. I do genuinely feel uncomfortable with someone who presents as male in a toilet. For me, I'm happy for transitioned women to use female toilets - but I'm not happy when it becomes unacceptable to challenge people who present as male in women only spaces.

I know that this leaves to difficulties - ' Passing' being a fairly loaded phrase - but trans activists should acknowledge that the originating problem is male violence, not cis privilege.

To be fair, the people I know who are trans get this, it's a small, vocal minority of trans activists and allies who speak loudly on the internet that don't seem to!

SlowFJH , why do you think toilets are divided into male and female in the first place?

You dont want male looking people in the womens loos though? (J p sheffield) or do you? Or do you think people should use any loo? (Ie why do you think we need gender/sex segregated loos at all)? Or does it matter how people look to you? Or is it how they feel?
Traditionally places for biological functions were divided on biological function lines? Why do you think it should be on feelings or clothes?

I'm arguing against the whole of this law because it was passed by religious right wing agenda that wants to give people the right to discriminate based on them being gay or trans.

It's a bad law based on ignorance and fear passed by religious fundamentalists (who probably think women should be submissive to their husbands).

Do not be on their side.

Sometimes people agree on something for different reasons. Sometimes people just agree on things, despite belonging to different groups. If the religious right said 'the sky is blue', am I supposed to disagree with them out of ideological purity or something?

So if it is a choice between hetero 'cis' right wing misogynists and gay 'trans' right wing misogynists who is right?

You're arguing against this law solely because you don't agree with the philosophy of the people who want to pass it. That is illogical. The substance of the law is irrelevant to you isn't it?

Because you don't like who started this law it doesn't mean it isn't a good law.

If I was a lesbian I'd be well pissed off to be lumped in with trans. The groups' needs are so different.

Slow but we already ban men from women's safe spaces because of what they might do. I haven't noticed any fuss being made about this?

The way forward is two-fold. First, we need to educate people to be accepting of those who don't fit gender stereotypes, ie men need to stop being so hostile to feminine men (if any man can use a female toilet that wouldn't be good for TWs either, you know - both women and TW are at risk from men). Secondly, we need to have more unisex (not gender neutral, this has nothing to do with gender) facilities. But they cost more money and use up more space. I must say I don't notice TAs campaigning for more unisex facilities. What I see is TAs compaihning to use women's facilities, which lays their real agenda out for all to see.

I have no issue with a masculine woman using the women's loo.

It does sound like this law in general isn't a good thing. But at doesn't mean that this particular aspect of it isn't. Plus I really do think it's time to drop the 'T' from LGBT.

I must say, I find the separate bathroom thing pretty dumb. I'd be happy with unisex bathrooms becoming the norm and think it would make life a lot simpler. But then I've never got why women feel threatened by someone washing their hands next to them at the sink. Women's toilets are all cubicles, right? At least, every one I've ever been in has been.

Or do I just go to unusual public toilets?

But then I've never got why women feel threatened by someone washing their hands next to them at the sink.

Do you seriously think this is what women are opposed to? Or are you just being disingenuous?

There is a risk to reputation by association. By supporting this portion of the law you'll end up with some very objectionable bedfellows. Just look what has happened to the anti-migrant threads on MN

I don't want someone with a penis in female toilets / changing rooms regardless of what gender they think they are

Tabsicle - I think the reason unisex toilets are uncommon is down to the male biology, it is much quicker and space efficient for give them urinals. I guess there could be a set up where the urinals were beyond the cubicles so out of sight of the rest of the toilets.

"I've never got why women feel threatened by someone washing their hands next to them at the sink"

Yes I see now, what absolutely silly little girlies we're being ! Likewise the PTB who decided in the first place to segregate bathrooms on the grounds of sex - we should explain to them they shouldn't be indulging our ridiculous fears and fancies about hand-washing people at the next sink, it was always ridiculous to have two categories of facility in the first place.

Mind you, this was from a poster who trots out many TA clichés - " assigned gender at birth" [recognised for the sex they are] - "bulky bearded men (who happen to have vaginas)" [females] "very feminine women in high heels and make up" [males] - they've managed to twist reality till it's standing on its head, so I 'm not surprised at the disingenuity of the crass 'handwashing at sinks' comment.

I think you'll find feminists are on the side of women. Whether or not other groups have the same line of thought about segregated toilets is neither here nor there.
I would have no problem with the person using the female toilets, what with them actually being a woman and all.

I was reading Buzzfeed yesterday and more than one TM had put a picture up with the "you want me using the same toilet as your wife". I found it slightly threatening tbh and did the trans community no favours.

I completely agree with RiverTam's post. The way forward is to have more unisex facilities.

I haven't read enough about this particular law to give an informed opinion. From what's been said it sounds as though parts of it are problematic. But saying that females should use the female facilities and males should use the male facilities is pretty self-evident to me.

I dont have a problem with individual unisex cubicles. Men can queue up and wait like we do. But i'm not going to campaign for it either until toilets become segregated by feelings or clothes

The sharing of images of 'big beardy transmen' is just weird ' it recognises womens fears of sharing with men but assumes its because we fear facial hair. Odd.

The beardy FTTs posting vaguely threatening photos of themselves is odd as a male person looking exactly the same could use the women's loos if they say they are women.