New anti-trans legislation in North Carolina

[SlowFJH]

Of course it's been driven by the religious right wing. But it does aim to achieve what many posters here appear to advocate - namely that biological males can only use men's toilets and changing rooms etc. Biological females must only use women's toilets and changing rooms. Will it gain wider support?

"and the right to go to the bathroom without getting beaten up because they don't look right for that bathroom is totally not one of them? "

Obviously, since AskBasil said "I'm happy to support transrights. They'd better get on with agitating for some that I can support which don't shit on women's rights."

No one is stopping someone peeing. What we're saying is (and yes, this is down to the person concerned's conscience) that you should use the sex you are's toilets.

It's not oppressive to say that - no-one is denying anyone toilets.

If mens toilets are so dangerous that trans women don't want to go into them, why do they want laws that will let any man who wants to into women's toilets with no chance to challenge them?

Unisex is the way forward.

I have lived places where there was religious segregation (defacto race segregation), and where there was strict sex segregation, where there were places where whilst legally I was allowed to be, it would have made the primary users of that place uncomfortable if I went. Just uncomfortable, nothing more - so I didn't go. Why would I want to make other people uncomfortable when there are places that I could go instead?

But no one has explained to me what this amazing precious women's right to wash their hands is.

Apparently women don't need single sex toilets because of the fear of violence. It's to do with their privacy and dignity which are fatally compromised if they have to wash their hands at the sink in the presence of a clothed penis. And NO ONE has explained it any further than that.

Every public toilet I have been in has a private cubicle to piss in. I guess you get changed in there if you really need to. I have never seen anything happen in the public space beyond women washing their hands, or sometimes applying lipstick. I have NO idea why protecting this special sacred space is so bloody important that the women on here are OK with other human beings, whatever their genitals may be, being put at physical risk to preserve them.

There are parts of the TERF argument I can understand, even if I disagree. This one just confuses me, no matter how hard I try and squint funny.

And I totally agree that unisex is the way forward. I think it would solve all this nonsense. In general, I think that more non-gendered spaces are the best option for the future, with a few limited exceptions such as refuges/hospital wards etc.

Are you confident thst teenaged boys would be perfectly behaved in a women's toilet? I'm not. And when I was a teenage girl there is no way in hell I would have used a loo or changing room that allowed makes in. I guess I would have just stayed at home. Same for survivors of abuse who might feel very unsafe in such s space. many Muslim or other religious women. Etc etc.

Just because you are fine with this can you really nothing thst many others aren't? Though I don't expect much from someone who used the term TERF.

Yeah, sorry about using TERF. I'm trying to train myself out of it, as it's been explained that women who hold those views feel it is a slur. I know that gender-critical feminist is the preferred term, and I'll try to stick to that in future.

Thanks.

Can I just say I don't actually think Buck Angel passes 100%? I clicked the google link. There's something about their eyes, and some of the poses, that still looks like a woman to me.

Yeah, sorry about using TERF. I'm trying to train myself out of it, as it's been explained that women who hold those views feel it is a slur. I know that gender-critical feminist is the preferred term, and I'll try to stick to that in future.

It's not in any way necessary to label women who don't agree with you. Just accept they don't agree with you, and try to have a discussion that doesn't involve the kind of passive-aggressive comments you use in your post above.

Hi Tabs - I've said this already on this thread, but think it got missed. As a teenager, I was sexually assaulted by a man who was in the women's loo. Whilst you could say that this proves that this rule doesn't make women safe - I feel that on balance, the fact that men feel that they will be challenge if they're in there, decreases the risk of men hanging out in loo's (as the man in question was) waiting for women to assault.

The expereience does not make me feel that anyone should be allowed to go to women's loos if they want to.

I feel safer knowing that peole are able to question men who hang out in women's loos.

"no one has explained to me what this amazing precious women's right to wash their hands is."

Well, seeing that your view of this issue after umpteen trans threads is still "precious right to wash hands", it might be that people think any effort to help you understand will be wasted.

Why don't you try thinking about it in terms of "What is this precious trans right to wash their hands, even when it cause discomfort and distress to women whose spaces they enter?" and let us know how that goes for you.

chaosmonkey - thank you for relying. I understand the safety argument, even if I don't agree with it. I was attacked when I was a teen - a stranger grabbed me from a roadside - and I get those responses.

I was then told that these rules were nothing to do with safety which was why I was pushing for an explanation.

"AskBasil - and the right to go to the bathroom without getting beaten up because they don't look right for that bathroom is totally not one of them? "

Of course it is.

As if women's right to go to the bathroom without being perved at by creepy men who can pretend to be women under any legislation which elevates gender identity as the sole criteria for your legal sex.

I'm happy to support transpeople's rights to not get beaten up. So start working on a solution which a) acknowledges and addresses male violence (it's not women who beat up transpeople) and b) doesn't shit on women's rights. Telling women we have to risk male violence by having men in our private spaces because of male violence, is bullshit.

There are many reported cases of men assaulting and spying on women using the toilet. You can Google it. Yet to acknowledge this for some reason is unfair to men yet we are supposed to acknowledge that transwomen may be under threat from men if they use the men's toilets. So men are a threat to transwomen not non-trans women?

AskBasil - and the right to go to the bathroom without getting beaten up because they don't look right for that bathroom is totally not one of them?

I would happily support a fight for unisex cubicles anyone could use, to go alongside men and women's toilets for those who want those. I'd happily support a fight against the people who beat other people up, for whatever reason. I will never support the right for a man to use services and spaces that are for women because he says he feels like a woman.

I would happily support a fight for unisex cubicles anyone could use, to go alongside men and women's toilets for those who want those. I'd happily support a fight against the people who beat other people up, for whatever reason. I will never support the right for a man to use services and spaces that are for women because he says he feels like a woman.

This. Completely.

And why do you not support women's right to go to the bathroom without being perved at by men pretending to be women?

Why do you only support transgender people's rights to piss in peace?

I support the transright to pee in peace and would support their lobby for gender neutral loos, but you don't support women's right to pee safely.

That's indicative of the state of mind of the type of transactivism which demands that biological men who don't look and act like women, have access to female spaces. They just don't give a shit about women and will happily throw women under the bus. Whereas as usual, most women are saying that they support transgender rights, are happy to stand with them, will not throw them under the bus, but please, can we please just get your support, to do what you're demanding the right to do? Pee in safety? But no, that's not fucking good enough is it, it's surrender or nothing, bitches, don't ever think you've got the right to have the same rights as we XY people who are the real women and will teach you how to be women properly. And now they've even got the fucking cheek to call butch lesbians straight transgender men. Fuckers.

Male Rights Activism that's what it is and it can fuck off. I've had it with that shit. Men are laughing in our faces and then rubbing our noses in their shit and we're still trying to be humane and decent and find a solution where we can all be safe from male pattern violence. But the transactivists who are demanding access to our spaces, aren't interested in having solidarity with us against male pattern violence, on the contrary, too often they threaten us with male pattern violence when we won't validate their view of the world and themselves.

I'm sick of it.

Sorry there's about 10 new posts since I started that one.

I think in your world Tabsicle no one has to use the dodgy loo in a public park with their 5 yo. Or get away from a sleazy man in a club with your mates. Or nip into a sketchy pub to use the loo when out. I would much rather unisex.

But here in Canada and America, where these laws are being put forward, there is a bloody great gap around the stall door. Well enough to see in. I don't like it; I would like it less with men in the room.

But this ignores the main issue that is that bathrooms are the visible tip of a privacy iceberg. And that iceberg is looming.

And now they've even got the fucking cheek to call butch lesbians straight transgender men. Fuckers.

WTAF? I had to read that ten times before I could even make sense of it, never mind register how grossly offensive it is for anyone to presume they can redefine women.

And of course, the reason they feel so confident about redefining women, is because they are men. Their male privilege enables them to define women however they want.

What we want, is utterly irrelevant.

Just like with (nearly) every other man

I've read so many of these threads now and while on the one hand I feel encouraged to know that there are many of us women who feel angry about this, on the other hand I feel quite depressed about this trend, from a link someone posted up thread:

"How to have a discussion in which you disagree with a woman who said something on the internet:

Just call her a TERF. That’s literally it! Once you’ve decided she is one of these TERFs, everything she has ever said or done is definitely wrong, you are definitely right, and also she is no longer human and you can feel free to threaten her with rape, burning, murder, and all manner of physical violence.

Welcome to our new age of enlightenment."

And of course, the reason they feel so confident about redefining women, is because they are men. Their male privilege enables them to define women however they want.

Both men and women (whether cis or trans) have shifted away from the old bio-definitions, and have been doing so for years.

We (humans) made up the words in the first place, and we can make them up to mean something else. If that is what enough of us want.

And any one person is entitled to advocate for whatever changes they want. You can of course attempt to dismiss the man who wants the change by imputing attitudes and thought processes to him such as in the above quote, but there are plenty of (cis)women who are also shifting and supporting the changes. So you might need to think about coming up with attitudes you can impute to them, to dismiss them also. Just saying.