New anti-trans legislation in North Carolina

[SlowFJH]

Of course it's been driven by the religious right wing. But it does aim to achieve what many posters here appear to advocate - namely that biological males can only use men's toilets and changing rooms etc. Biological females must only use women's toilets and changing rooms. Will it gain wider support?

Wave from the wrong side of history Almond. Your own family and friends will (I can only hope) be embarrassed by your position. People go into toilets to use the loo. Its predjudiced of you to fear them for "crimes" they might commit.

The good thing about the intertubes is that in decades to come historians will be able to look at this site and be amazed at the insanely bigoted logic of the anti-trans lobby of the religious right and the radical feminist movement.

Cross-posted with this tidbit. Let me just say for the record that I consider myself a radical feminist.

Seneca, I don't think you are really on a 'side.' I agree with you that there are a range of LGB issues getting caught up in this and that is very worrying. I also agree there are issues with religious ideology being a threat to human rights, and I know that's a greater issue in the U.S. than here.

But I also worry about the tribalism that puts us on 'sides' where we assume that the other group are always wrong, morons, immoral etc and I think there's growing intolerance and lack of nuance from both left and right at the moment. I do appreciate the points you're making, and it is hard to separate out these issues when political positions have become so tribal.

Seneca
I apologise for pouncing on your sexist point re James Sheffields' tweet to Gov McCrory.

I have high hopes for the US. The Democrats have won the popular vote in five out of the last six presidential elections - and that was when the Republicans had moderately sane/centrist nominees (Bush, Dole, Bush, McCain, Romney). We are becoming more liberal and tolerant. The Tea Baggers, Religious Nutters and Bigots are so angry because they know that they cant hold back the tide of liberal progress.

It's so bizarre to hear feminists defending a right wing Southern Governor who has just signed the most bigoted legislation since the Civil Rights movement of the fifties and sixties did so much to have human beings treated with fairness, dignity and respect.

McCrory is a moron. As is Trump.

I say that with the utmost respect for them as human beings.

Nobody said trans people shouldn't have rights.

Again - try actually reading the responses you receive properly.

I agree almondpudding. And I'm thankful for MN because it is even harder to have these discussions in RL.

OP, as to your hopes for a more tolerant society in the US, as my mama used to say, "From your lips to God's ears."

Alis
Your fears about what crimes or dangers a trans person might commit or pose in a public restroom is predjudiced defined. People are innocent until and if they do something they should not.

I'm not at all frightened.

But okay,my statement that men and transwomen commit violent crimes at the same rates is prejudiced rather than y'know...fact. 🙄

When you write about James, you're writing about passing. Because James looks male we should reject James from female spaces. Someone could mistake James for a man and kill him. Passing is not the issue.

My issue is space for women. TBH I'd prefer single, unisex toilets. For everyone; we'd all be safe. But prisons, rape crisis centres, the person who does my smear; sex female please.

We could make the same issue flashing up images of non-passing trans women and asking if someone's wife would want to share space with them.

And unless you think that women have nothing to fear from men, the whole 'innocent until proved' argument is bullshit. Men as a class have proved they are a risk to women as a class. Hence sex segregation. Men as a class may well be a risk to trans people as a class. But that is not women's fight. I will go to the barricades for safe spaces for trans people but NOT to change women's spaces to safe spaces for everyone.

James is welcome to use the female toilets because he is female. I googled him and he doesn't pass as well as your description implies, he looks like a trans man.
The issue isn't whether trans people are all rampaging about committing crimes in toilets. The issue is that toilets are sex segregated spaces for reasons of privacy and dignity and feeling like you're trans doesn't change your sex so shouldn't change the toilet you use. It's as simple as that.
Trans people who don't pass (most of them) need unisex toilets. Providing a unisex toilet would be an easy way for a business to provide equal toilet access to all and is probably something trans people should be advocating for.

Whatvince and several others have said

I get crosser and crosser at women being emotionally blackmailed into giving up the spaces that other women have fought for.

Trans people can fight for trans facilities in the same way women did. Nobody gave us rape crisi centres, DV refuges and we even had to sight for single sex hospital wards.

Slow, didn't you start posting in the FWR boards as a regulation MRA type, now you're suddenly all for trans people's rights? I don't think you really give a shit about them at all (and you certainly don't give a shit about women, whether they identify as men or not), you just know you've found an approved way to slag feminists off and use trans activist dog whistle phrases like 'wrong side of history'.
The link between MRAs and trans activism is blatantly obvious at times.

I definitely second what almond, Mrsterry and Vince said.

You're a rum 'un, aren't you, Slow? Quite the agent provocateur.

Personally, I'm not sure that this legislation is particularly helpful. Were I a transactivist who was genuinely concerned about safe spaces to pee, then I would now be changing tack and campaigning for gender neutral toilets alongside existing sex segregated facilities. That way, I could get the feminists and the religious right onside, and everybody could win, because there's nothing objectionable about good facilities for everyone. Then passing or not passing, schrodinger's rapist or maligned good guy, all become irrelevant.

But that doesn't happen. And the reason it doesn't happen is that the more insane end of the trans lobby doesn't want safe spaces to pee - they don't actually give a shit (ha ha) about that. What they want is total capitulation to their view of the world, to silence anyone who doesn't believe in the lady brain, and to get public recognition that they pass into their desired gender. And that, Slow, is what feminists object to. The toilets are a proxy, a metaphor, an irrelevance. And I'm pretty sure history will acknowledge that, or I feel sorry for the future generations.

Freshwater spot on. This is all about men reasserting their dominance over women. Proving just how male many TW are.

This "wrong side of history" notion is bizarre. We are not on an irreversible march towards an enlightened state of being. What will the US future be like if Trump is elected?

I guess Iran is on the "right" side of history as it has the highest rate of transition in the world?

Can I just point out that the North Carolina law is wider than bathrooms? It bans local governments from passing any protection against discrimination, and the new state-wide law excludes lesbians and gays as well as trans people from protected groups. But it does include protection for religion (including presumably beliefs that being gay is wrong). It also prevents local governments from setting a higher minimum wage than the state one. And on the other thread someone mentioned that it prevents people taking discrimination cases to a higher court - that hasn't been covered in any of the news articles I've just looked at though.

Gosh the ladies' is getting crowded. We're getting...

1. Women
2. Children (female and male up to whatever age they can go on their own)
3. Transwomen
4. Anyone who says they're a woman (note this is a separate category from No. 3)

It's not surprising we have to queue. "Turn up the tolerance" indeed.

As Worms says, this is about men asserting their rights over those of women. How male of them.

ThIs law was passed by downright nasty people who would would probably prefer that black people were still segregated from toilets and drinking fountains. They too would probably use "statistics" about past crimes to justify their prejudice.

This law will also allow shop keepers to refuse to serve customers if they want to - as was the case of the flower shop that refused to do the flowers for a gay wedding.

It's prejudiced, bigoted and retrograde. It's ridiculous that feminists are on the same side as racists, homophobes, sexists and religious fundamentalists.

So do you think sex segregation is on a par with racial segregation? In which case surely the answer is gender neutrality? Sorry, its a long thread, is that what you are arguing? That for example offering male and female hospital wards is like offering black and white only schools??

David Cameron's a down right nasty man but he endured homosexuals have equal marriage rights.

Shades of grey, OP, shades of grey.

Why can't men use women's toilets?

Ensured

Trans Activists are so wrapped in male entitlement it's untrue.

I recently read a column of Paris Lees, holy crap her writing is poor, about catcalling. She said, sort of, that she loves it, she finds it empowering and was brought up not to be afraid. BUT SHE WAS BROUGHT UP MALE. Whether she likes it or not this makes a huge difference.

Or are you arguing to expand the oppressed class definition to include those who the oppressor class reject? Perhaps like the old 'mulatto' definition?