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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New anti-trans legislation in North Carolina

999 replies

SlowFJH · 24/03/2016 23:26

Of course it's been driven by the religious right wing. But it does aim to achieve what many posters here appear to advocate - namely that biological males can only use men's toilets and changing rooms etc. Biological females must only use women's toilets and changing rooms. Will it gain wider support?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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PosieReturningParker · 28/03/2016 15:46

I like dealing in fact, the fact is if I was in a loo rather isolated (like the back end of a run down shopping centre as I was last week) at 5'1 I would be very uncomfortable about sharing a space with any of the TW in the photos.

PrettyBrightFireflies · 28/03/2016 15:50

posie there are a lot of things I'd rather "not do" in life. Stand eyeball to eyeball on a crowded bus with a stranger, share a railway carriage with someone who has different standards of personal hygiene, or overhear an argument between a couple in the street.

If it were possible for women and transwomen to share toilets and other segregated spaces safely, then I'd accept my feelings of discomfort I may have about their appearance or mannerisms. My right to feel comfortable does not trump anyone else's feelings.

But it's not about my feelings. It's about my safety. And the safety of all women and transwomen who use that space. How can they be kept safe from the predatory men who will target those spaces with impunity.?

PosieReturningParker · 28/03/2016 15:55

I'm not really sure why you've tagged me. My discomfort comes from the fact TW and men commit physical and sexual assaults at the same rate.

PrettyBrightFireflies · 28/03/2016 16:03

Sorry posie I tagged you because you said your DD "wouldn't want" to share facilities with the transwomen you posted photos of, because she'd be uncomfortable.

Those transwomen are not predators. They pose no risk to your DD. But other men will. And it is your DDs safety, not her discomfort, that should be the issue.

My comfort does not trump another persons feelings. But my safety, and that of my DD and other women and transwomen, does.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/03/2016 16:06

Enthusiasm - that's not really the point. The debate is about single sex facilities. For example, despite what the OP says not all trans gender people are pushing for trans women to be allowed access to female loos. I came across a trans forum where this was being discussed and a minority of posters did say they appreciated their presence could make some women uncomfortable and they would prefer unisex or using the disabled facilities. One, was quite vociferous that using the ladies was completely unacceptable.

However picking 3 random, individual transgender persons, 2 of whom can be identified and neither of whom , as far as Google tells me, have committed any crime, doesn't, to me anyway, add much credibility to the arguments against the OP.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/03/2016 16:08

Posie Nina's picture is not nameless. On my phone her name comes up under her picture. I didn't recognise her but her name is there.

RufusTheReindeer · 28/03/2016 16:10

I refuse to identify as a lioness Hmm

I have seen the nature shows, lionesses do all the work

Oh and i am always in the bloody loo...so leaving it til i get home is not going to work

And its not just the loo people have a problem with, its the erosion of womens safe places as has been said on these threads many, many times

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/03/2016 16:11

Just checked Posie - that is downright not correct about Nina Greenwood's photograph being nameless - or did you really think no-one would click on it ?

ovenchips · 28/03/2016 16:12

Alleycat I think the example you are talking about is something slightly different. That person has undergone a full transition to a trans woman. They will have paperwork, including a certificate, to show for legal purposes their gender is now female. So legally they are absolutely entitled to use women's loos and if imprisoned to serve their time in the female estate. They have been through a gruelling process of probably counselling, hormones and surgery and their need to change gender identity has been explored and assessed.

People on this thread are concerned, as am I, that the proposed new legal changes come to pass where a man can live fully as a man, the next day decide he now identifies as female and purely based on this self-identification (probably dressing accordingly and using female pronouns) and without counselling, hormones or surgery be considered as a woman in law. He still has a penis, he still has 100% male hormones, he may call himself a lesbian and continue to have sex with women, using his penis, or have sex with men using his penis (cf Tara Hudson).

He can legally go into a space where women are vulnerable or performing private acts (getting changed, using loo) and have exactly the same right as the biological women to be there. Even if he is demonstrably male (with a beard for example) and causes distress to the women using the facilities. And yet the only difference from the man he was legally classed as the day before is that he has now self-identified as a woman.

This has the potential for all manner of undesirable things to happen. It allows perverts and predators to exploit this new law and get themselves into women's loos/ prisons etc (there are real life examples of both) to assault and rape. The self-identified trans woman could be an autogynephile. Again someone who does not belong in sex segregated spaces.

It sounds absurd but every man in a prison could decide within 24 hours that they self-identified as female and as such would require transfer to the women's estate. Men have already used this tactic in real-life. If the law were to change, it would actually protect the men in this assertion and allow them to do so.

So slow's contributions aside - I honestly don't think they actually understand the nuance of this debate and think almost every poster is saying 'we hate trans women and want to treat them as sub-human'. I genuinely don't think anyone is saying that on this thread. We are saying people have the right to live and dress as they wish. But there are some scenarios where there would be dangers to women with this new legal proposal and so this idea of self-identification being enough to be classed as a woman is wrong.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/03/2016 16:20

Are you being ironic about naming Nina? I post a nameless picture and you fucking name them?

No - Are you being ironic Posie ? You go to the lengths of finding a photograph of a non passing trans woman, post it with her full name showing and then criticise me?

GreenTomatoJam · 28/03/2016 16:22

My comfort does not trump another persons feelings. But my safety, and that of my DD and other women and transwomen, does.

But someone else's feelings do trump yours?

Unisex is the way forward, but in the absence of that, transwomen in the women's toilet means that women feel uncomfortable so trans don't - and women have no-where else to go, unlike the transwomen who can go and use the mens.

As a rule, I prefer to put myself at discomfort rather than other people if other options are available, trans activists prefer it the other way round.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 28/03/2016 16:24

Why is it not the point ? I know what the argument is and have put my point across

I have also read one forum where transwomen should accept they are transwomen and spaces for women/girls should be just for them as they are not women they are transwomen

That is against many other points of view from vocal transwomen

And yes my being uncomfortable does trump someone's dulisional feelings about themselves and how others should see them because mine is a fact it's real

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/03/2016 16:28

Enthusiasm What I meant is personalising it in the way Posie has done adds nothing to the debate. Especially, given her backtracking that she didn't identify one of the individuals concerned when she quite clearly did.

SuburbanRhonda · 28/03/2016 16:33

Unisex is the way forward

What, everyone sharing the same toilet facilities? Why would anyone want that?

Peyia · 28/03/2016 16:42

This thread confuses me. A transwoman is a threat to women because they have a penis should go in the men's toilets, but a transman who looks very much a man with a vagina is not welcome in the woman's toilet? The only way for this to end is for unisex toilets for trans people.

Who would be policing these spaces anyway? Particulary if they look like a 'woman' or 'man'.

Peyia · 28/03/2016 16:44

Rhonda I would hope unisex would be in addition.

How would anyone know if a trans person went in the men's but was biologically a woman?

FloraFox · 28/03/2016 16:45

when I see the weak being attacked by the strong

The idea of feminists being the strong "attacking" weak MTTs is ridiculous.

MTTs commit crimes at the same rate as other men so women are justified in being concerned to see MTTs where they are vulnerable.

SirVixofVixHall · 28/03/2016 16:45

I don't think any one said that a transman with a vagina wasn't welcome in women's loos?

SuburbanRhonda · 28/03/2016 16:52

Rhonda I would hope unisex would be in addition.

Ok, that's not what greentomatojam posted, but unisex toilets in addition would make more sense.

Peyia · 28/03/2016 16:57

But a transwoman who looks very much female with a penis is not welcome so I figured it would work both ways?

I completely understand why women would not want to share their space with someone who looked male (or is biologically male) so as said previously (and I've suggested on other threads) that unisex toilets in addition may be the compromise required.

GreenTomatoJam · 28/03/2016 16:57

Err - It is - I said Unisex was the way forward, from the point of view of where trans people should go - since that's what the thread is about.

Although, I don't mind the lobby style ones I've seen places, where there are enormous, private cubicles that I and the kids can all fit in together personally.

GreenTomatoJam · 28/03/2016 17:01

I don't think a 'passing' trans person would be noticed or challenged in the toilets of the sex they pass as, in fact, plenty of not-particularly passing trans people are similarly un challenged.

The problem is, that without laws like the OP, and with self-determination laws, there is no right to challenge.

99% of the time I'm sure there's no problem, but we need the right to kick out that 1%

SuburbanRhonda · 28/03/2016 17:05

Sorry, greentomatojam, it read differently to me.

IAmTheWhoreOfBabylon · 28/03/2016 17:07

Toilets worry me less than other spaces although there are practicalities
Would there need to be sanitary disposal in both toilets. I get fed up of queuing for the loo so adding more people would not thrill me, nor would someone standing to pee and peeing over the seat
There could also be times when I could possibly feel threatened
My local pool is tiny with only communal changing rooms. I would not like an individual in there with cock and balls whilst I was changing with my dd
Not necessarily because it was threatening but for privacy and dignity

TiggyD · 28/03/2016 17:08

...but unisex toilets in addition would make more sense.

But not if they're all in a line. If there were 4 toilet doors marked Male Female Accessible Unisex next to each other, anybody going in the unisex one may as well have an "I'm Trans!" T-shirt on.
If the unisex was a reasonable distance away from the others then people could use it with the 'excuse' of it being the nearest.