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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

New anti-trans legislation in North Carolina

999 replies

SlowFJH · 24/03/2016 23:26

Of course it's been driven by the religious right wing. But it does aim to achieve what many posters here appear to advocate - namely that biological males can only use men's toilets and changing rooms etc. Biological females must only use women's toilets and changing rooms. Will it gain wider support?

OP posts:
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5
SirVixofVixHall · 28/03/2016 17:10

A unisex/family loo makes sense alongside regular male/female ones, it can be tricky for a father out with young daughters to take them to the loo. DH has used the disabled loos on occasion for this reason.

Cocolepew · 28/03/2016 17:15

Why would you need to label the doors of separate cubicles? Surely if they were self contained then anyone could use any of them?

Eustace2016 · 28/03/2016 17:17

I have never thought about public loos as much as on this thread... and yes I've just been out and no I didn't need to use one as I went before I left home,. thankfully. They are always flithy anywayl Now the toilets at Tehran airport on a business trip were interesting - you have to squat right down and there is a short of shower head thing instead of paper - they think we in the West are pretty dirty we don't wash.

Women have a huge long standing issue of not being welcome in the public space. In a good part of the world we ave expected mostly to stay at home or cover our horrible menstruating bodies so no one is appalled or inflamed with lust over us. In other parts such as children's play grounds in schools boys often dominate the whole play ground and little girls are consigned to a tiny area at the edges. when We walk down the street men call out at us or woolf whistle. We need to wokr out ways to control these men and not limit women's use of the pubilc space. It needs to be if men cannot control themselves then they should stay at home and not be let out rather than that women should have to hide away from men dominating public spaces. I can see whyy this toilet thing has got so big.

RomComPhooey · 28/03/2016 17:43

SlowFJH I'd love to hear how you plan to prevent it from happening, I don't fully understand how to be a 'lioness'... So if there's a magic solution, please do share it.

Perhaps slow is busy converting his basement do he can keep her safe Natasha Kampusch-style. That's pretty much a parent could make such a sweeping (and assinine) statement.

PrettyBrightFireflies · 28/03/2016 17:48

eustace as an aside, as I don't want to derail the thread, but as a frequent user of public loos, I do t share your opinion that they are all filthy and disgusting.

Generally, I find them clean, functional and fairly pleasant places to be!

GreenTomatoJam · 28/03/2016 18:43

Sorry - yes, having re-read I can see that it could have been read 'unisex' for all - no probs

But not if they're all in a line. If there were 4 toilet doors marked Male Female Accessible Unisex next to each other, anybody going in the unisex one may as well have an "I'm Trans!" T-shirt on.

Not really - plenty of people will use it as over-spill when the other toilets are busy.

In any case, the women's toilet isn't there to provide coverage to enable transwomen to hide their sex - it's to do a pee in (or to change sanitary wear or nappies etc). On the list of reasons to use the women's toilet, 'so people don't realise I'm a man' is so far down the list it probably shouldn't be on it.

SuburbanRhonda · 28/03/2016 18:48

And also not wanting to derail the thread but eustace it was mentioned before that public toilets also includes toilets in the workplace, in restaurants and sports facilities and so on. I've never found these to be dirty either.

I think most people would go to the toilet before leaving home. But unless they were very lucky, most would probably need to go again at some point during the day. I definitely couldn't get through my working day without going to the toilet at least twice.

AnnaForbes · 28/03/2016 19:21

If there were 4 toilet doors marked Male Female Accessible Unisex next to each other, anybody going in the unisex one may as well have an "I'm Trans!" T-shirt on.

But every trans i've ever known has always looked like a trans, they dont pass as women so why do they need to disguise the fact by avoiding a unisex toilet?

Unisex should definitely be an addition not a replacement for women-only toilets, I'm not comfortable sharing and nor would I want my dds to.

OddBoots · 28/03/2016 19:42

"If there were 4 toilet doors marked Male Female Accessible Unisex next to each other, anybody going in the unisex one may as well have an "I'm Trans!" T-shirt on." You say that as if being trans is something to be ashamed of - do you think there is something wrong with being trans?

I use the disabled toilet, does that mean I may as well wear a t-shirt that says I am disabled? I think most people could tell that from looking at me but even if they couldn't why would I be ashamed of who I am?

I am what I am and what I am needs no excuses...

OhSoGraceful · 28/03/2016 20:08

In town I know the majority of public loos are split by male/ female, however the library has unisex cubicles. One local pool has unisex individual changing cubicles poolside, instead of changing rooms. If I was a transwoman I would try to go to places like this, knowing it would prevent anyone feeling uncomfortable.

As a mother of sons, who are too young to be sent alone (oldest is 7), but will soon be too old for the ladies, I often base my choice of where we go, on knowing there are facilities where we can be comfortable, without making anyone else uncomfortable.

If me and my children can manage, is it really impossible for an adult transwoman to treat people with the same respect and make similar choices?

TiggyD · 28/03/2016 20:11

But every trans i've ever known has always looked like a trans, they dont pass as women so why do they need to disguise the fact by avoiding a unisex toilet?
And all the trans you've met before who don't look trans don't count because you didn't know they were trans.

I use the disabled toilet, does that mean I may as well wear a t-shirt that says I am disabled?
It's more acceptable to be disabled than trans. People wouldn't stick your picture on a parenting site as an example of a possible child abuser just because you're disabled. And most trans people want to be invisible and just get on with their life, and if they can they will be.

Cocolepew · 28/03/2016 20:22

If there were 4 toilets in a line then the TW could go in anyone because there wouldn't be anyone else in them.
Have I got the wrong end of the stick? Self contained, single toilets don't need to have anything on them Confused

OddBoots · 28/03/2016 20:24

"It's more acceptable to be disabled than trans. People wouldn't stick your picture on a parenting site as an example of a possible child abuser just because you're disabled." That shouldn't be happening to trans people and I'd join you in any campaign to fight that. Not all disabilities are treated equally, parents have had threats of their children being removed because they are disabled and some mental health conditions are particularly badly accepted by the public at large. Being trans should be acceptable, trans people shouldn't have to try to pass and hide the fact they are trans just to get on in life, that is where the fight should be.

"And most trans people want to be invisible and just get on with their life, and if they can they will be." Don't you think most disabled people want that too? :)

Eustace2016 · 28/03/2016 20:26

If I were a trans woman and looked like a woman surely you just pop into the ladies' loos if you're caught short and no one knows? I don't see why any of it is a big issue really. But then we are the kind of family who will happily go on nudist beaches and walk round the house naked so I suspect your own family values tend to have an impact on this too.

TiggyD · 28/03/2016 20:32

"And most trans people want to be invisible and just get on with their life, and if they can they will be." Don't you think most disabled people want that too?

Yep. Hence prosthetics and invisible hearing aids.

PrettyBrightFireflies · 28/03/2016 20:41

And most trans people want to be invisible and just get on with their life, and if they can they will be.

If that is true, then they need to stick their head above the parapet for long enough to object to the representations and rights that are being fought for on their behalf.

Because I can only base my opinion of trans-people on the individuals who are acting as spokesperson for the trans-community.

MyDeskYourDesk · 28/03/2016 21:21

Hi, I've read the whole thread and admire the arguments made by Cote, Crappymummy and many others. I feel like Posie had a difficult time just now and I feel sure she didn't mean to imply those people were predators. The point is though that they have the same likelihood of being predators as other men. So the answer to Posie's question is no, her 9 year old daughter shouldn't have to be in a public loo with them, because they are men.

Apart from that, I've really learnt a lot from all of your very scything arguments, and even from Slow, as this was an education in exactly how bull-headed and dismissive an activist can be.

MrsJamin · 28/03/2016 21:30

Just read this article : "Officials at the University of Toronto were forced to eliminate their “gender neutral” bathroom policy after a string of incidents involving women being filmed while showering. On at least two separate occasions last month, female students spotted cell phones being held over the stall partition to record them while they bathed. " This is why we need to protect safe spaces, Slow.

SuburbanRhonda · 28/03/2016 21:33

Slow isn't an activist, mydesk.

MyDeskYourDesk · 28/03/2016 21:35

I thought they were arguing like one, sorry my mistake. What, then, just like a keyboard warrior?

MyDeskYourDesk · 28/03/2016 21:36

By the way Suburban Rhonda I felt bad for the way you got harangued earlier. That wasn't good.

SuburbanRhonda · 28/03/2016 21:51

That's really kind, mydesk.

I meet far worse in my work so he didn't bother me. It was just the "conversation" with Slow was one of the least satisfying exchanges I've had in MN and I've been here a few years now.

CoteDAzur · 28/03/2016 22:11

"If there were 4 toilet doors marked Male Female Accessible Unisex next to each other, anybody going in the unisex one may as well have an "I'm Trans!" T-shirt on."

Utter nonsense, which only a man who has never suffered the long queues of a women's toilet can claim.

Many women would gladly use unisex facilities rather than wait 15 minutes in line at the ladies' toilet.

MrsJamin · 29/03/2016 08:22

I think Slowfjh has finally conceded, no poet since Sunday night.

Peyia · 29/03/2016 08:39

Many women would gladly use unisex facilities rather than wait 15 minutes in line at the ladies' toilet.

I know I would!