New anti-trans legislation in North Carolina

[SlowFJH]

Of course it's been driven by the religious right wing. But it does aim to achieve what many posters here appear to advocate - namely that biological males can only use men's toilets and changing rooms etc. Biological females must only use women's toilets and changing rooms. Will it gain wider support?

But what about women? Are we not important?
What is your stance on women's refuges?

I'll stand up for them even without ANY personal gain.

Yes, so you've said. Even if your methods of standing up for trans-women put women and trans-women at greater risk of harm from male predators.

I can understand why your gay peers didn't come out when you were teens - your support could well have damaged them!

Do you have a daughter as well as sons ?

Ah Lass I missed that even though i had seen the misgendering.

Apologies Slow I presumed you were trans, not that it is something that needs apologies. Do you mind me asking Slow what has led you to feel so strongly about trans issues, have you been affected individually or is it a more general experience?

Pretty what you have been through sounds truly awful.

Lass
Thank you for being the ONLY person on here to come out against the vile comments made by PosieReturningParker and the person in Tesco looking like Les Dawson in a dress

You sound like a reasonable person. I do want to reassure you once again that my mistakenly calling Alex "he" was a genuine mistake. You are right that I am not 100% au fait with the etiquette of transgender pronouns. And of course I am conditioned to associate beards with "he/him" etc. But I want to assure you that I did not "misegender" Alex deliberately. As she is in the public eye (I was not aware, I am going to contact her and make her aware of this thread).

Op will you please answer my question?

AlleyCat
You should be the next Taoiseach!

What has led you to feel so strongly about trans issues

I have a visceral reaction to when I see the weak being attacked by the strong and I feel duty-bound to step in. This has a lot to do with the faith I was brought up in. I feel a rush to stand up for who I consider to be the underdog in any situation. My children have picked this up from me too. I am proud of this but also a little worried too.

I have seen a lot of the comments re trans gender people on MN basically be variations on the sentiment expressed by PosieReturningParker. If I was still living in the States I would all in my power to stop Trump, McCrory, Coulter and their ilk

I will probably also go into battle against the usual suspects on the absolutely vile anti-migrant threads on MN.

So in answer to your question - it's a more general protective instinct.

Will you please answer my question

PrettyBright
Okay. Now let's connect as respectful human beings (rather than point scoring debate contestants).

Firstly, I am truly sorry for what happened to you. Your story makes my blood boil and is one of the few situations where I know my pacifist principles would be dropped in an instant (if this ever happened to one of my loved ones).

So you have my total sympathy.

But here's where I think you and I may have to agree to disagree.Oswin I will answer your questions too.

Saying to your daughter "I know this will happen to her too" is defeatist. I also have a daughter. I say there is no fucking way that I will ever allow this to happen...EVER. That does not mean retreating to refuges and accepting the inevitability of sexual abuse. It means being a FUCKING LIONESS.

Equally we can't tar all men with the same brush and see them all as potential rapists and voyeurs. I know some are.

When one Muslim commits an act of terror, killing innocents, the very best thing I can do is go to another look him in the eye, offer him the hand of friendship and call him brother. This is the best victory.

So of course I want my daughter to be safe. But i refuse to put her in purdah.

We should all be fighting for a society where people can and are required to behave appropriately, legally, respectfully and with tolerance and respect for our fellow human regardless of sex, gender, caste, creed, rank, privilege, wealth or faith.

We can chose to be led by our fears.
We can chose to be led by our hopes.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one. I hope some day you will join us....

OK I need to go to bed right now.

How on earth do you imagine that you can protect your dd at all time, even if you think you are a 'lioness'? My dd was really upset the other day because a man on the bus stared at her and masturbated. Oh and then she was wolf whistled in the street. This in a normal small town where generally everyone is very nice. Should I not let her carry about her normal business, but only allow her out with a parent to protect her? It's not being defeatist to think that our daughters will be sexually harassed, sadly it's just a realistic evaluation of their likely experiences.

I'd love a world where men don't harass women, where girls aren't routinely warned not to walk alone and aren't blamed when they are abused. Right now that's not the case. Given the situation women find themselves in it's only natural that we are very wary of men telling us to give up the few safe(r) spaces we have, because they can't be bothered with the bigger fight of getting their fellow men to behave themselves. Most women seeing a male looking person in a public toilet or changing room will likely feel anxious about their intentions. Apparently men react with violence rather than fear. It seems to me that's the irrational 'phobia' to tackle, not the learned reaction of women who may have a very real reason to be afraid.

Hold on - I confess I've skipped the last couple of pages but if the solution to women's worries is that we can take voyeurs and attackers to court once everyone's allowed in our toilets, why don't we just skip that and let trans women take men to court if they attack them in the men's toilets?

Why is this even a thing, since Slow has already given everyone the solution?

Slow? Wouldn't you agree? Prosecuting through the law is how we do this in civilised societies, so there's no need for trans women to go in women's toilets at all for fear of male violence, they can just go in the mens and the police will deal with anyone who attacks them.

Wearing a dress has nothing to with Maria Miller's proposed legislation in the UK. If self identified gender overrides biological sex, there is nothing to stop anybody who claims to identify as female hanging out in the women's toilets, including anyone who gets their kicks beating up transgender people.

The effect of the legislation would be no meaningful segregation. That might be great for women who want a shorter queue for the loo, but it wouldn't enable greater safety for anyone.

It certainly wouldn't enable greater safety for anyone whose appearance challenges any kind of stereotype, but who 'identifies' as their biological sex.

Slow to be clear , just because I agree with you on one point do not rope me in as an ally. I am sceptical about your reasons for making this thread ; particularly given your posts on other threads such as the Breitling one.

slow, being gay doesn't have much to do with being transgender.

Yes, they both on the face of it challenge gender stereotypes but they really aren't the same thing.

Gay people have a romantic and sexual preference for people of the same biological sex and as such very much aren't saying that biological sex is not important.

As a woman I will never be able to self identify my way into be sexually desirable to a gay man.

It's certainly a difficult issue as most of us women (50% of people in the UK) are subjected to male comments, touching and all the rest regularly. I think men find it hard to understand. However I really don't think the toilet issue is a big one. If the voyeurs want to film up women's skirts on the London Underground (yes I'm afraid a good few have even done that) or are barred from toilets when they pretend to be trans they tend to be able to do stuff like install secret cameras in nurses' homes and things like that.

I don't think most of us use public toilets very much at all so it's not a big issue. How many of us are in public loos all the time? Our local ones have been removed by the council (and I've joked to the children that I will leave my money only the council to build and run new ones in perpetuity as it is appalling there are none) and if I can manage it I try not to use others when out and about as they are usually in a digusting state.

Like many men and women I feel a lot of sympathy for anyone who is discriminated against i.e. women but also trans men and women. However it's not a huge issue except to the people affected by it compared to say the discrimination more generally against women and we have limited resources and time so like all issues we have to balance is carefully as to what as a nation we need to do about it. Removing gender on passports might be a good first step. Why does anyone need to know if I am male or female? Back in my first job over 30 years ago I devised a letter sign off for business letters using just my initials as I didn't want clients to know if I were male or female. Over 30 years on the issue is still there.

I don't think removing sex from passports will help the matter - I think it just obfuscates it.

I'm a woman. I don't mind being a woman (well, OK, lots of the biological aspects are inconvenient - there's a reason we're not having a 3rd kid for example) - I mind how I'm treated because I'm a woman.

Removing 'female' (my sex) from my passport will not stop people treating me as a woman. I don't think even drastic surgery could stop that. The kids calling me mum, my traditionally female name, my boobs, body shape, height and size make it all very clear I'm female.

Removing sex from my passport just means that suddenly we can't easily see how many women are coming into the country vs. men, or how many women have passports vs. men. ie. All it does is make it difficult for governments to do sex based analysis.

I have a visceral reaction to when I see the weak being attacked by the strong and I feel duty-bound to step in.

And this is exactly why women are defending their safe spaces. The trans lobby is very strong and vociferous. Of course they need their safe spaces but they should not intrude into our safe spaces. The lack of respect shown by some transwomen to women is frightening. As are the threats they issue to those who debate with them.

I have a visceral reaction to when I see the weak being attacked by the strong and I feel duty-bound to step in

And lets never forget (which men often do, having never experienced a world where 50% of adults are bigger than them) that a trans woman who transitioned in adulthood is an average of 2 stone heavier, and 6 inches shorter than a woman. Their muscle mass may change to be more like a woman's (or may not - depending on if they take hormones), but they still have a significant size advantage.

Op why do you lump fear in with bigotry and prejudice?
Fear can't be helped.
Nobody is scared of a man in a dress. We are fearful of predatory males using proposed new laws to make it easier to spy on/attack/intimidate women and girls.
Why aren't you sticking up for women?
Or is is it only TW (men) and gay (men) you are concerned about?
Poor oppressed men

I have asked this question before

A man who accepts he is a transwomen and not a women is not living a lie, we are not colluding in the dulision and surely that is a healthier state of mind as a male can never become a female and I have yet to see a transwomen who would pass as a woman

I have nothing in common with transwomen apart from maybe wearing heels and make up

It should be respected that I at times only want to share spaces with other females

As I respect men who want to become transwomen and their spaces

We should all be fighting for a society where people can and are required to behave appropriately, legally, respectfully and with tolerance and respect for our fellow human regardless of sex, gender, caste, creed, rank, privilege, wealth or faith.

You are right. We should. And once it has been achieved. I will stop fighting to protect my DD from predatory men.

But until then, I will not support anyone who puts their own "need" for respect ahead of my DDs need for safety. Especially when their need for respect puts themselves at more risk too.

You are not fighting to ensure all people behave appropriately and respect each other. You are fighting to remove the protections that society has put in place because not everyone is. Deal with the predators, the voyeurs, the rapists - then, you'll find that women will be a lot more welcoming to anyone else who wants to enter their safe spaces.

"I have a visceral reaction to when I see the weak being attacked by the strong and I feel duty-bound to step in"

Aww, bless

That is one of the most dishonest declarations I've seen on here, and that is against some competition.

The truth is more along these lines: You are a man who tells women what to think and calls them names when they don't toe the line.

A man who avoids the simple question Are you male? (asked for the 8th time on this thread). Why?

You clearly have an agenda that you don't want known, hiding instead behind "Oh I always fight for the weak because that's the kind of nice guy I am". Well, I'm not buying it and judging by the comments on here, neither is anyone else.

If you cared for the weak, you would spare a thought for the preteen girls who go alone into the changing area of a swimming pool. But no, this gallant knight this prince among men is charging at us women because clearly some six-foot male in makeup is "the weak" re males in female-only spaces

"You are not fighting to ensure all people behave appropriately and respect each other. You are fighting to remove the protections that society has put in place because not everyone is. Deal with the predators, the voyeurs, the rapists - then, you'll find that women will be a lot more welcoming to anyone else who wants to enter their safe spaces."

^ This.

Eustace2016 - I don't think most of us use public toilets very much at all so it's not a big issue

I disagree. We're not just talking about council-run Public Toilets here, but toilets in pubs, clubs, restaurants, colleges, schools, workplaces ... having available and safe public toilets is, if anything, even more important for women because so many of us suffer from bladder weakness following childbirth and/or menopause. Add in having to deal with periods when out and about and it's clear that the availability of safe public toilets is an important factor in women's ability to participate in public life.

Saying 'I don't use public toilets much so it's not a big issue' is a bit 'I'm all right, Jack'

merrymouse- that is a very good point that is seldom raised, that people who are happy in their natural sex, but don't conform to gender norms in terms of outward appearance, could be less safe rather than more under these rulings. Interesting. I've had a lot of male friends of the makeup wearing highly flamboyant type of gay man, who have never wanted to be women, but who have faced abuse in male loos etc. At clubs they would sometimes use the Ladies with a female friend to validate them, for this reason. Men's loos should be safe places for men of all types, and yet you are not addressing this at all OP. Men and women who don't conform to norms in terms of dress face abuse from MEN.
I once had a very short hair cut, not a single women made a nasty comment, but men? I had "Fucking Dyke" shouted at me by teenage boys, (I was also wearing trousers, with my short hair, how dare I?) And while walking home alone on a dark night ,a man in the street came right up to me and whispered in my ear "You fucking, fucking lesbian". I was extremely frightened. I thought he was going to assault me. Women have this kind of harrassment all the time from MEN. As do trans people I am sure. And yet us nasty feminazis are the baddies. FFS turn your energy on addressing other men , rather than us, and have a long hard think about how realistic it is to assume your daughter will never be at the receiving end of male abuse, just because you are a "lioness" . In a recent Twitter poll, 95% of women said they had received sexual attention from adult men while they were under the age of consent.

And yy to pretty, Cote and coco.