Trans women as NUS Women's Officer- Part 2

[StinkyPie]

Last few posts from Part 1;
sieReturningParker

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

Today 16:19 ShortcutButton

4th if Anna and Sarah were TRUELY allies of women then they would seek to address the concerns that women are expressing in reasoned tones, over and over and over again in varies forums

Instead, they held an emergency meeting (this is before my poutburst) and decided the beast course of action was not to respond to women

How can you consider that approach to be the action of people that understand women, align with women, want to advocate for women????

Think of it as a personal relationship. Your lover or friend is expected to support and care for you. The person is acting in a way that you feel is not in your best interests. You attempt to start a conversation with your friend/lover to discuss this. They totally blank you and refuse to acknowledge that you even spoke

How do yuou feel about that person? Are they your friend?

Taking the analogy further...you get frustrated that you are being silenced and your concerns ignored and have a short aggressive outburst

NOW that person is listening to you. Telling everyone how violent and scary you are. Using this as an excuse for never having to listen to you again...a reason noone should take your opinion seriously...

How do you feel about that person now? That's an abusive narcissist personality type

Today 16:17 VincentVanLowe

They know you aren't threatening them. Your post was clearly making a point about the difference between criticism and concern versus threatening and harassment. The latter is what women are subjected to every day by trans activists. The former is what Lee and Noble have been busy deleting and dismissing as 'bigotry'. They've chosen to misrepresent posts here and elsewhere in order to play act like they believe a bunch of women posting on mumsnet are actually any sort of physical threat to them, two good sized males with plenty of media backing - it's farcical, we all know it is.

Today 16:16 PrettyBrightFireflies

4th - so why wouldn't you support a man in the role of NUS Womans Officer ?

If having experience is not relevant to the role, then what is the difference between a trans-woman and a man in fighting for the Annafesto?

Sorry Hound, I disagree. This is a petition phrased as 'we are lgb people who believe... ' so it would be dishonest to sign if you are not, no matter how much you support the community.
There are other ways to put yourself on the line and show support.

Do you believe in what they're saying or not Countess?

If you do - sign, if you want to piss about with definitions and not help people who could sure do with some support then don't.

Your choice.

I don't think semantics are important at this stage of the game.

You support the ideals or you don't.

It's couched in the language of LGB because they honestly don't think anyone else cares, the community itself is used to battling, do you really think they'd reject a straight woman's signature or do you think they'd welcome anyone who wants to fight the good fight?

As Mary says above many of us were tom boys i.e. normal human children who like climbing trees, our pen knife etc and I am sure the fact I was not shoe horned into pink or dresses is one reason I am happy, adjusted, earn an awful lot, have a great career rather than just concentrating on the make up on my face and bagging a husband. Certainly some gender neutrality is important.

As someone said above most of us women do not come out with abusive comments about transpeople. When I was only about 12 or 13 I was reading in teh Sunday Times magazine and in books from the library about April Ashley and Jan Morris - these are famous trans gender people and to read their stories made me very aware how terrible it must be in effect to be born in the wrong body and of course they can have surgery etc. But there are a huge range of different kinds of human sexualities so we cannot put everyone in the same box.

The issue of whether a man in a dress should lead a student women's group is obviously concerning for women. We have far too many men in charge of women , boards, the cabinet and the like already. Safer adn better if instead those trans men fight hard to ensure other women get to positions of power rather than taking them themselves. Let them be a stalking horse if they want but better if we do not have women's spaces invaded more - as it stands women own 1% of the world's wealth. if it were 99% I would not be so concerned. If the cabinet were 80% female I would not be so concerned either.

bitterness, spitefulness and worthlessness.

Nice to see that sexism is sticking to the insults that have been working for it for hundreds of years.

A proud tradition still going strong in a world of change.

Countess I just asked a lesbian friend what she thought about me signing the petition, after she'd finished laughing her head off about the bloody hoops we throw ourselves through, she said, yes , please, sign. The more the better, if you agree, put your name to it.

I've figured out how to say what makes me feel awkward about signing - it's that I don't think, as someone who isn't LGB (or T) I get to say when someone else is LGB or T - even if, I don't understand quite how T got there, since it's nothing to do with sexual orientation unlike LGB, because I'm not part of the club, I don't think I get a vote.

Just like men in feminism, or men wanting to be women, or as a non-student voting for NUS officers etc.

After all of that soul searching, I went there to have a look, and I'd already signed when I first saw it - I wonder if it was spun differently at the time, or if I just wasn't in such a reflective mood.

I am sorry, I am short of time to catch up on thread. Will do later.

But I wanted to say I agree with Hound about actions we can take. Nice as it was to get views from 4th wave, her posts came just when there was some serious discussion about things we could do. That got lost.

I think, if we are careful how we phrase things (I.e no misgendering etc, so that MNHQ do not delete or come under fire) maybe one of the useful things is a list of resources (there were a few on the last thread); as well as actions possible?

Lots of us are time poor (and possibly also resource poor) so a pooling of information would be invaluable. The danger is that this provides information for those who try to silence debate too.

I've signed it not because I'm LG or B but because I support them, as in the people who started it. I don't think it matters who signs it.

I guess the way i would think about it (though i see you did already sign ) is would the people who wrote the petition like only their fellow LGB's to sign, or would they like lots of signatures? I'm guessing the latter.

Plus, i would sign simply because including T is inaccurate and inaccuracy winds me up something rotten

On talk of children, one of my boys is much more into dresses than the other. So when he told me when he was older he was gonna be a lady and carry a baby in his belly, do you think i took him to the dr for hormones and told school he was a girl, or do you think i told him that umm, no, he will be a man when he grows up

It isn't about whether the signatories want our support. I am sure they do. The petition is phrased as 'we are x and believe y.' I believe y but I am not x. You don't support a group by lying that you are a member of it when you're not, and by saying it doesn't matter you are destroying the integrity of that petition as a statement of what it claims. I believe the integrity / free speech aspect of the whole trans debate is vital (ie we should not be forced into lying about whether individuals are men or women) and we lose credibility on that argument if we apply our regard for honesty selectively.

I see exactly what you are saying but I'm not entirely clear on where the line is drawn. Is the written statement intended to represent the signatories, or just those who set it up?

I assumed the latter and that those signing were supporting them. I'd no intention of dishonestly signing anything and would not wish to if it were the former, but I am unclear how it is supposed to work.

All petitions are worded as "we think xyz". It has never occurred to me that signing implies you are of that group, just that you support it. Hmm, food for thought, thank you...

I have asked the person who started the petition for clarification. I will report back!

"All I can see from these angry transwomen is jealousy of a biological body that they will never have. We as women can't help you with that problem, we recognise that that must be hard to come to terms with, but don't take it out on us!"

It seems to me that it's not even a jealousy of the body in some cases; it's a jealousy of the clothes, the freedom to act in a way they perceive as un-maculine and therefore they perceive as 'feminine'

I have two boys and I do see the pressure on them to conform to gender stereotypes. And in some cases, this is what it leads to

I also wanted to say how shocking I find it that gender is s polarised in children, I think compared to what it was in the 70s

... when i grew up

I agree narp

I wass looking at old photos of the 70's

I wore skirts a lot (i would imagine because they are "girls" clothes...unless you are scotish,' Fijian or any other culture where men wear "skirts")

But no pink, and no pastels...and a lot of clothes matching with my younger brother

I know i desperately wanted jeans with a coloured stripe down the side and i got them, except they were boys hand me downs. My mum was dead chuffed that she had got me what i wanted, they "boys" bit didnt even cross her mind

I'll catch up with the thread in a mo but this has really been playing on my mind, sorry if it's garbled, must be my lady brain playing up!

At the moment Trans Trumps Gay and I am really concerned that some adults would prefer a trans daughter to a gay or effeminate son. I know a very effeminate boy and I see that his very straight, right wing parents find this hard to cope with, in a few years I fear that children like this will be encouraged to jump ship to the other sex as their parents are more comfortable with this.

I am also sick to death of middle class white kids redefining themselves because they cannot stand to just be what they are, ordinary and privileged.

I know so many teens who call themselves queer, but are straight and have always been straight. Apparently their next relationship may be with the same sex, it never is as they don't fancy their same sex, but it might be.

Someones sexuality is the least interesting thing about them, love who you like, fuck who you like. But please, for the love of all that is good in the world, stop BORING me with the details. Stop trying too hard to be edgy and interesting. Seriously, just STFU and count your blessings.

Quite Lumpy, if I hear another young and special snow-flake describe themselves as queer I may have a literal shit-fit (not sure what that would entail, but it wouldn't be fucking pleasant).

It's the X factor generation, think they can get famous by queuing up and interesting by slapping labels on themselves. Not all teens at all, most are bloody hard working individuals but there is a rise in narcissism and I am so bored with it all.

I have fought gender stereotyping all my life and the whole trans movement has set any gains back years, if not decades.

All rising generations feel the need to define themselves differently. If that means kicking against the beliefs and values of generations before them so much the better. I honestly think that trans/pan/fluid/queer generation will grow up and get over it. Of course then there will be some new bullshit to make us angry. Self identifying into private spaces will go tits up after a few children are exposed to lady penis in women's changing rooms, and there will be new case law following the inevitable law suits. The adter a woman gets pregnant by a lady penis in prison, or a trans man gets raped in a men's prison there will be an enquiry and new guidelines will be drawn up to safeguard vulnerable prisoners which should have been obvious in the first place. But as trans and queer theory loses traction there will be less pandering in law and policy.
At least I hope this will all happen. I believe it will.

I agree lumpy it has set us back. I will do all that I can to try and stop this madness. Perhaps since we are accused of being radical perhaps we should take 'radical' action as well as ' liberal' action such as petition signing etc. I feel quite energised with anger but can't think what to do with it.

I am also sick to death of middle class white kids redefining themselves because they cannot stand to just be what they are, ordinary and privileged

this really resonates with me

SN accusing us of being 'white privelged feminists' gave me the rage

this is the school they attended as a WHITE MALE

is the school my 3 sister in laws attended

That's right. No school.. No access to education, cclean water or healthcare including ANY maternity care of any description

And they have the audacity to describe themselves as a marginalised woman

I am honestly SICK of them

I hope you are right vince as regards enquiries of course not the violent acts