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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

And so it begins: Transwoman is running for women's officer of NUS

999 replies

PosieReturningParker · 19/02/2016 15:52

Some of her aims:

Gender neutral sex ed
Women in leadership making room for transwomen (because you know how many women are in leadership roles)
BUS accepting transwomen to compete as women in sports

OP posts:
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Claraoswald36 · 23/02/2016 09:55

Just a few. I fecking ask you.

ShortcutButton · 23/02/2016 10:14

thanks crayon

will spend some time this afternoon writing letters
its a fecking nonsense

SheldonsSpotOnTheCouch · 23/02/2016 10:53

Unfortunately I think there's a good chance that this person could be elected. When I think back to how I was as a student I probably would have voted for them. I was so desperate to be 'right on' and wanted to fight for the rights of everyone. Except women. It wasn't fashionable or right on to be a feminist. I was so disgustingly socialised to accept harrassment from males that I actually took it as a compliment when I was grabbed and groped by a male stranger on the dancefloor. I felt validated by it. I'm ashamed to admit that.

I'm terrified by the way the country's going in terms of trans issues. I used to sympathise with trans people, believing it must be awful to be born in the wrong body. I believed them when they said they knew they were female because they felt female. I just accepted it as fact. It's only recently, and with the help of mumsnet, that I've started questioning what that actually means. What does it mean for a man to feel like a woman? There's no such thing as male and female brains so surely they just mean that they don't fit into society's model of a man. That doesn't make you female!

And why arent we allowed to discuss this without being censored and accused of 'transphobia'? I'm not transphobic. I support the rights of people to present themselves however they choose but when your lifestyle and the rights you demand start impinging on my rights and the rights of women everywhere (not actual women, not cis women, not born women. Just women) then I'm going to start getting pissed off.

And wtf is a queer lesbian trans woman? I can't work it out. I know there is some vitriol directed at lesbians who refuse to accept trans identifying men as potential partners. Why is that hatred directed towards women? What about the men who don't want to be with a trans identifying man? It seems to me that some trans women don't actually like women at all. And why would a gay woman want to enter into a relationship with a person who is biologically a man. However the fuck they identify? Why?

I'm feeling so angry about all of this. I came to feminism late in life and I'm not as articulate in my arguments as some of you on this board but I wholeheartedly agree with you all. I want to do something.

I've gone way past peak trans.

CrayonShavings · 23/02/2016 11:16

No problem Shortcut - I very much feel that the public is being gaslighted and misled on this issue, and that the interests and voices of women and girls are not being respected or represented.

We must tell those in power that we object in the strongest terms to our rights and privacy being taken away and given to any old Tom, Dick or Harry (or 'Anna') that wants access. Otherwise they will look to the media (which has largely picked a side and it ain't ours) for public opinion. Where this kind of garbage is published, with no right to reply from the feminists pilloried in the article:
www.independent.co.uk/voices/trans-people-have-no-dispute-with-feminists-they-either-support-transgender-rights-or-they-do-not-a6872546.html

And Vincent I think that's a fantastic point about proof. The burden of proof is, yet again, being put on women to prove that we are under-represented, in danger, disadvantaged. And yet they've managed to convince the Minister for Women and Equalities that they need to barge into our spaces, represent us, dictate what we should see as important, who we should feel safe around, on their own say-so with not an ounce of science, not a smidge of proof behind their claims.

PosieReturningParker · 23/02/2016 11:30

I've posted this on a thread I started but this is well worth a watch. It's an American campaign.

www.facebook.com/JustWantPrivacy/?fref=ts

OP posts:
MagicalRealist · 23/02/2016 11:31

Thank you for posting those links crayon, ive really wanted to be able to challenge this trans doctrine somehow but didn't know where to start or how to phrase it.

By the way, slight derail but I just had another comment deleted from the guardian. I didn't misgender anyone, I didn't state that transwomen are men, I just explained that most transwomen don't physically transition and also that the only thing that's required in the way of proof that a transwoman is in fact trans is her own declaration that she identifies as female.

That's just an unemotive statement of fact. I don't see how it can be judged to be threatening or offensive in any way.

And so it begins:  Transwoman is running for women's officer of NUS
SheldonsSpotOnTheCouch · 23/02/2016 11:35

From your linked article crayon: "If you think I’m a man, fine. I don’t need you to accept me. But I won’t sit back and let you take away my rights."

Oh the irony. Do they not see it? If it weren't real life it would be unbelievable.

whatdoIget · 23/02/2016 11:37

It's not at all offensive Magical. It just shows how shaky the foundations of the transgender movement is if it can't even cope with perfectly reasonable questions and concerns being raised. They must know it's a load of old bollocks

RomiiRoo · 23/02/2016 11:49

Thank you Vincent, I needed to read thatFlowers.

And thank you crayon for the links. I am not well, but this thread will provide ideas for letters and there does need to be a response, yes.

PenguinVox · 23/02/2016 12:29

It's interesting that the Anna-critical comments I've seen on the HuffPost article have been from men. I suppose they aren't worried about being nice and offending people! Do you think their comments will end up deleted or is HuffPost somewhere that allows debate?

MrsJamin · 23/02/2016 13:57

@indystudents and guardian students are both running articles on Anna. She is probably lapping up the attention.

MrsJamin · 23/02/2016 14:10

independent article lifted from her website etc. Anyone care to comment?

ShortcutButton · 23/02/2016 14:14

Oh no, really Sheldon??

I've been thinking back to me and friends at uni and thinking about how we would have reacted. I've been comforting myself with the thought that no way we would have bought into this bullshit. But I did science. And it was a long time ago

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 23/02/2016 14:23

I find Anna's appearance frustrating - I'm truly not trying to make this a bitchy comment, and I don't want this to be about "passing privilege" either, but if Anna was in a changing room with me I would read them as male and I would instinctively be nervous.

But if we are to accept the Annas of the world into our changing rooms, with their height, male build, (probably) penis, masculine voices, stubble and wigs - then how on earth can we tell them apart from the blokes who put on a dress to perve on women? Because you can't look at a person and read their intentions and I honestly cannot tell the difference.

I worry that the orthodoxy will be that women lose the courage to challenge these male bodied individuals in their spaces which will put them at risk, or they will simply stop going.

SheldonsSpotOnTheCouch · 23/02/2016 14:26

'Fraid so, shortcut. More to do with my own upbringing and the company I kept. As I said, I was a latecomer to feminism. Got there in the end, although sometimes I wish I was still blind to it all because it's everywhere and it's so bloody depressing.

ShortcutButton · 23/02/2016 14:38

Have commented on independent jam

LyndaNotLinda · 23/02/2016 14:59

You're not a feminist apparently Shortcut Hmm

ShortcutButton · 23/02/2016 15:27

Honestly!!...whipper-snapper Grin

I'd be ashamed if she were my daughter.

ShortcutButton · 23/02/2016 16:20

Actually, do you know what, this is probably an excellent situation isn't it

Anna's supporters are students aren't they?? Generally below the age of 25. Being all right on and liberal and probably compared to a lot of their peers they are really politically astute and progressive

But theory are ensconced in their own little world. The majority have not stepped outside of full time education or white middleclassdom. They are mostly ignorant of the bigger picture, context and counter arguments.

Let's educate them!

MrsJamin · 23/02/2016 16:25

Indeed, they are showing themselves up to be very naive. Wait until they are mothers with daughters to take into the swimming changing rooms and see how they like this liberalism then.

ShortcutButton · 23/02/2016 16:50

Which is fine really, isn't it jamin. Students are supposed to be naive

Problem is, they have the potential to cause damage over this

Cellardoor1 · 23/02/2016 16:54

MagicalRealist there is a thread on r/GenderCritical on reddit where you can post screenshots of guardian comments on those articles that were deleted. It's where I first saw Posies comment that was also deleted. Someone who saw that happening started the thread

I wonder if it's an idea to start something similar here to show how women's voices are being silenced on this issue?

3point14159265359 · 23/02/2016 16:55

Shortcut, yy. When I was a student I'd have naively and liberally massively supportive of this. And I'd have thought those that weren't were ignorant and backwards looking.

I don't think I realised til I started thinking about having children just how much we still needed feminism. I thought my forebears had done the job for me.

VincentVanLowe · 23/02/2016 17:02

"I worry that the orthodoxy will be that women lose the courage to challenge these male bodied individuals in their spaces which will put them at risk, or they will simply stop going."

I think this is already happening all over the place. No one is measuring how this is affecting women's participation, but anecdotally I and several other women and girls I know choose not to participate in both online and offline spaces which toe the trans line. We do not feel welcome or respected, so we don't waste our energy.

I wrote a research proposal for my final undergrad assignment last year, pointing out that girls in schools and womens orgs had been given no voice or acknowlegement at all when several different sets of trans promoting guidelines for schools had been developed and sent out by local authorities. They (we) have not been considered as a stakeholder group at all when their (our) teams, toilets, changing rooms, school trips etc have been opened to males who identify as trans. I got the lowest mark of my entire degree by nearly 30%. They gave me the lowest mark possible - I'm not even joking about this. 40 was the pass point, I got 41. If they had given me 39 I could have asked for a re-mark, but they gave me just enough that there was nothing I could do. I don't think it was a great assignment, but I know I was given that low mark because of my topic and angle - suggesting that the impact of trans centred policies on women and girls should be investigated is basically seen as hate speech in many places.

This all makes me feel like a nutty conspiracy theorist, but the fact is that women and girls are being silently excluded from all sorts of spaces by trans centred policies. I know teenage girls who avoid using their school toilet block since they changed it to be more open, one of the ones with sinks down the middle, the local press reported that it was now welcoming to transgender youth (I suspect it was more built to save money or something?). The girls I know aren't comfortable with it, they'll talk about that out of school, but they haven't made a fuss and so no one has noticed that their access and participation has been affected. No one cares except feminists, and we are being censored and banned from any space where we might bring the topic up.

We need to take control of our own spaces again, as a starting point. We need to make feminist spaces women only and we need to tell anyone who doesn't like it - tough. We need to work out how to make existing laws work for us, we need to rake through international and European human rights legislation etc and point out where our rights are being obliterated. We need to stop calling men women and she and pandering to people who disrespect and despise us. We don't need to 'go along' - but if we are going to stand against the tide then we need to stand together and create some sort of support network or safety net for those women who are targeted by the wrath of these guys.

I have started bringing up this topic with different women in different contexts, and maybe it's just cos they've all been mums so far, but not a single one has been 'trans positive' - theyre all aghast. We aren't small in numbers, we just aren't organised!

PenguinVox · 23/02/2016 17:21

Cellardoor1 yes I think that's a good idea.