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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

General Trans thread part 2

999 replies

ChiefClerkDrumknott · 07/01/2016 08:29

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go Wink

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive Hmm

OP posts:
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HermioneWeasley · 24/04/2016 11:37

I'm almost tempted to go to the GP and see how easy it would be to get my children labelled "trans" and offered meds

vindscreenviper · 24/04/2016 11:44

Grayson Perry bravely comes out as 'not transgender' and 'a bloke in a frock' Grin
love him

General Trans thread part 2
grimbletart · 24/04/2016 11:53

Meddie: hear hear. It could have been me too had I been little today. It took until my teens to realise that it wasn't that I actually wanted to be a boy, I just wanted to be me - a me who happened to like the sort of life, activities and freedoms that boys had and that I didn't.

In a way, though I am grateful. Because it made me a feminist from the moment I could say the word. Had I fitted the stereotypical pink box the penny might never have dropped.

StKildasNun · 24/04/2016 15:28

Hopefully it will become acceptable to be non-binary - just something in between. So the MtF, FtM isn't obligatory and the hormone taking not necessary.
I would have liked to have been a boy. 3 brothers and a mother whom i realised in later life 'much preferred little boys to little girls'.
I am certainly not dainty or feminine but very much a woman.

Italiangreyhound · 24/04/2016 16:10

Rufus Caroline Dinage isn't my local MP she is Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Ministry of Justice and the Department for Education , and she replied when I wrote to my local MP.

I am still pondering what to say in reply to her letter. I think it was a very bog standard one designed to put my mind at rest but actually doing just the opposite!

RufusTheReindeer · 24/04/2016 16:26

italian

I see

Ds1 keeps emailing her about various local issues, i dont think he is very impressed with any of her replies Smile

Italiangreyhound · 24/04/2016 17:26

Rufus can I ask how old DS1 is?

RufusTheReindeer · 24/04/2016 17:33

he was 17 in january

He will have a winge about something and then trot off to email her

I can't work out whether to be proud of him or not Grin

slugseatlettuce · 24/04/2016 19:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VestalVirgin · 25/04/2016 15:38

While I hope that people will see the issues when the transgender narrative is applied ot 3 year olds, I would not rely on it.

I have talked to people who took offense at the statement that "children need mother and father", not because it is a terrible, terrible thing to force couples who cannot stand each other to stay together "for the children", and even worse to force women to stay with abusive men ... but because "There are more than two genders, so if a family had to involve all genders, there would have to be five parents", or something.

People are not seeing the reality anymore. They do not even seem to realize anymore that there are only two sexes.

Has anyone on here had any success in making one the new, hyper-supportive genderists see reality?

I myself was pretty tolerant of transwomen (and the very few transmen) as long as they were just this tiny minority who had surgeries and was not much talked about. However, I have always seen it as problematic that they use stereotypically feminine clothes to validate their identities, and suspected that there would be conflict when we get closer to a genderless world.

So, the moment I read that they intend to take women-only spaces away from us, I immediately saw the problem.

But those young liberal feminists ... I have no clue how to even begin to challenge their ideas on gender. I fear they'd immediately attack me and see me as enemy.

StKildasNun · 25/04/2016 17:12

I've just thought of another transgender point to ask MPs about.
What will happen to stats on womens/mens health. There will be a change to the percentage of women with eg ovarian cancer, or of men with testicular cancer, which would go down if there were transgendered people in the equation. And there will also be eg women with testicular cancer for the first time.

Some of the most valuable health research runs over decades - is it ok for there to be sudden (all be it small) discrepancies after 2016 or will that mess up stats for good or at least for the next 10 years or so, until the numbers of gender changed people evens out - but still there is the issue of men getting cancer of the uterus and women testicular cancer.

Surely stats must reflect birth stats of individuals or will that be illegal or impossible to ascertain.

VestalVirgin · 25/04/2016 17:20

Surely stats must reflect birth stats of individuals or will that be illegal or impossible to ascertain.

I strongly suspect it will be illegal.

After all, disguising male violence as female violence is some of the point of this whole thing. This doesn't only lead to males in women's prisons (although that is the most pressing issue) it also completely messes up statistics.

As for the medical side of the issue, there are so, so many things that will be completely messed up. For example, ... apparently, they vaccinate only girls against HPV. Will they now vaccinate everyone who identifies as girl? (I see nothing wrong with that, they should vaccinate boys, too, but ... well, the reasoning for only vaccinating girls is allegedly biology)

kua · 26/04/2016 20:07

Just to give everyone a heads up. This thread had been linked to on Twitter by Trans activists.

Italiangreyhound · 27/04/2016 00:14

Thanks kua.

PalmerViolet · 27/04/2016 08:40

This thread had been linked to on Twitter by Trans activists.

A lot of them are, then the TAs get their jollies for a while slagging women off, with absolutely no sense of the irony of their doing that.

According to them, we're all middle class mummies and stupid women, and as such shouldn't have a voice.

Bless them. Hmm

Italiangreyhound · 27/04/2016 10:02

If they are reading this they may learn something. I think a lot of ordinary trans people are in denial about what really happens. They think we are bigots because they don't see the reality of what can happen.

Clonakiltylil · 27/04/2016 10:44

Just a question that occurred to me - if the self-certifying transgender people don't undergo surgery etc, they are still at risk of illnesses common to their birth gender, aren't they? So if a trans woman needs treatment for testicular cancer, or a trans man needs surgery for ovarian cancer say- will the individual be best-served on the ward of their adopted gender, without specialist treatment? Surely not. It's all ludicrous.

Italiangreyhound · 27/04/2016 12:22

Even if males have had surgery there will still be a prostrate. They still need specialist care.

VestalVirgin · 27/04/2016 14:11

They claim that is an additional discrimination - that the medical establishment doesn't offer prostate cancer screening for "women".

So, yes, they created a problem there, but I don't for a second believe that they will accept the blame for it.

And I am rather sure the transwacktivists themselves still access appropriate care for their sex, just like Jenner accesses golf clubs as male - it is the transed kids I am worried about. They are told that it is possible to change their sex, so I wouldn't be surprised if they thought their health risks changed sex, too.
(Of course, transmen, i.e. adult human females who take testosterone, have a much, much higher risk of problems with their reproductive organs. That is why it is recommended to them to get their uteruses surgically removed five years after starting testosterone, at the latest - so, for women, transing actually increases the risks that are already there ... and of course there are the added male-type risks of heart disease and so on)

singingsixpence82 · 30/04/2016 03:52

Hi everyone, I'm new here and I'm not up to date on reading the whole threads (I'm taking my time and taking notes!). But in the unlikely event that the thread were to fill up without a third one being started I wanted to ask you whether you've heard of the case of the "guevedoces" (or the similar groups in Papua New Guinea and Turkey)? From an internet search I see the term "guevedoces" has never appeared on mumsnet (which surprises me - maybe I'm wrong?). These people are genetically male (XY chromosomes) but due to a genetic abnormality look like perfectly healthy females when they are born. They become obviously male however at puberty (the term guevedoce means "penis at age 12" in Spanish) when they "grow" a penis and their testicles descend (is that the right language?). They are relatively common in two communities according to several sources - one in the Dominican Republic (where they are called guevedoces) and one in Papua New Guinea (called something else here I think). Wiki also says there are cases in Turkey.

What is interesting is that because these males are indistinguishable from girls at birth they are raised as girls by parents who fully believe that they are girls (cases are arguably not common enough for there to be high suspicion that they are not what they look like sex wise). When their male anatomy becomes apparent however most seem happy to begin living as males and many change their name to reflect their "new" gender. They are typically healthy and fertile and go on to marry women and father children. I watched a bbc documentary and one of the guevedoces interviewed said he had always felt more like a boy, preferred boys toys, preferred playing with boys etc, was very comfortable when he became a man. His mother also said that she had her suspicions as he/she was growing up - on the basis of his behaviour rather than looks I think. This seems to be a common experience or this is implied in what I've read although I haven't read that much yet. In other cases the person is happy to remain a man physically but they keep their birth name, so it is not uncommon to come across men in this part of the world called Katherine etc. A smaller group are not comfortable being men and have gender reassignment surgery to "become" female and retain their original identity.

On the whole I find the feminist arguments on this topic very convincing (I have done a complete 180 degree turn from previously believing that gender was most likely innate psychologically - partly because I'd just never thought about it that much as the negative implications aren't immediately obvious). And yet there are some things that I've come across, this being one, that make me wonder. I'd be interested in peoples' thoughts although may not be able to correspond that much over the next day or two, work being a bit unpredictable.

VestalVirgin · 30/04/2016 10:53

Yeah, I heard of that, and I think the cases where parents "knew it" can be attributed to people only paying attention to things like "preferred boy toys" if the child then turns out to be a boy.

It's the same reason why people believe in horoscopes and all that stuff - if it happens to be true, then that is taken as affirmation, if it is not, it is soon forgotten.

I am also doubtful of those boys looking like perfectly normal baby girls. The penis is the part of the anatomy that usually develops as clitoris in girls, and if they later develop a normal penis, then that part must have looked somewhat different from a clitoris beforehand. I mean, what happens to the labia? Do they stay in place?
Though I can believe that parents in those cultures look for a penis, and don't pay much attention to not-penises, so that they are genuinely mistaken.

Also, isn't that phenomenon rather more a proof that gender is just a social construct? After all, those boys don't seem to have much of a problem changing their gender role when their penises appear.

I also know of a case where a woman discovered at age 20 or so that she had internal testicles and was actually genetically male, but with androgen insensitivity. I use female pronouns because she never identified as male - if people just knew what sex they are, wouldn't she have noticed?

Perhaps there is a stadium of pregnancy where the foetal brain is imprinted with how its genitals are supposed to look like, and perhaps something can go wrong during that stage.

That would explain old-fashioned transsexuals with sex dysphoria.

It would not, however, explain the wave of men who claim that their penises are female. That is just utter nonsense, based on nothing but the harmful (to women) gender roles men use to oppress us.

There is also no reason why "gender identity" should matter like, at all.

It makes sense to segregate people by sex, because a) men are more violent, as well as having more upper body strength they can use to commit violence and b) even though women could theoretically rape other women in prison, this cannot result in pregnancy, which would be an added danger to the life of the victim.

It also makes sense to segregate toilets by sex because women need waste bins in the toilet, while men ... do not.

Exceptions like the aforementioned person with androgen insensitivity are largely irrelevant, because she could not impregnate a woman by natural means, her likelihood to be violent is probably female-type due to the androgen insensitivity, same for upper body strength.

If it looks like a woman and sounds like a woman chances are it is a woman, and if not, the difference is likely to not be relevant.

Compare that to the reasons why gender identity should be a good grounds to segregate people in bathrooms, prisons, or sports - there are none.
Except perhaps for sports that are traditionally sexist and force women to wear revealing and/or glittery costumes and demand that women look a certain way. But that ought to be abolished, anyway.

crazycatdad · 30/04/2016 13:54

Re sports and the Olympics coming up, any bets on when the first woman-free Olympics will be? Because given the competitive nature of elite athletes, it's pretty much inevitable now.

VestalVirgin · 30/04/2016 14:04

Re sports and the Olympics coming up, any bets on when the first woman-free Olympics will be? Because given the competitive nature of elite athletes, it's pretty much inevitable now.

Hmmm ... the ones after the next, I think. Some women athletes will be better than the males, and then of course they need enough men who want to be known as trans, so it will take some time.

But I think some women will boycott the Olympics when it turns out that males are allowed to compete as women, so that will speed up the process.

The last woman will be banned for using testosterones in the attempt to keep up with the males.

singingsixpence82 · 30/04/2016 14:09

Everything I've read and listened to does suggest they look like girls at birth without ambiguity. And I doubt doctors in any part of the world just see "non-penis" and think "whatever" - especially if this is a known thing in these regions and has been happening for a long time.They would surely be aware of any differences in the genitals of these babies. But I do plan on doing more reading - haven't done that much yet and the questions you ask are ones I've wondered about and haven't found answers to. I'm also not sure if you can actually do google searches relating to child genitalia without putting yourself at risk of having committed some kind of sex offence (?!).

On the other hand if this is a thing then I agree that parents may be more alert to the possibility of a potential natural sex change and may be paying closer attention to gender related stuff and filing "played with "boys" toys again today" away in their heads as being noteworthy. That said I don't think I agree that you would expect changing your gender role to be as easy as they seem to find it. I largely believe that gender is a cultural construct as you say but if I had grown a penis at age 12 I would have found it massively distressing, even though I was not at all stereotypically feminine and even if I had known that that can actually happen. I doubt I could have coped with "becoming" a man even if others in the community had had or were having the same experience. It is interesting though how some of this group goes with the gender "change" while others reverse it, and the fact that there are far more in the first category, as far as I know.

I completely agree with you vestal though that this does nothing to explain why people with penises and full male anatomy believe themselves or claim to be female. I think I see it as being more relevant as comparison for the group of trans people who experience genuine sex dysmorphia.

VestalVirgin · 30/04/2016 14:26

I largely believe that gender is a cultural construct as you say but if I had grown a penis at age 12 I would have found it massively distressing, even though I was not at all stereotypically feminine and even if I had known that that can actually happen. I doubt I could have coped with "becoming" a man even if others in the community had had or were having the same experience.

Well, one does get somewhat used to one's body ... I would have been distressed, too, though I don't think I would have gotten surgery.

I was plenty distressed about hair growing in my body in areas where it had not previously, and all the other changes of puberty, but I had been warned so that was not as much of a shock.

Suddenly having to fit in the social category of male would have shocked me a lot ... likely more than the physical reality of having a penis.
Sure, you get all the privilege, especially in Turkey, and no more fear of rape! Yay! But you'd also have to be friends with males, and that'd be a serious downside. (I read one report of a retransitioned ex-transman who wrote that she was so annoyed by men's conversations that consisted mostly of showing off, that she finally decided to go back to being a woman.)

But there's niches for men who don't want to be misogynist assholes, so ... yeah, I suppose I could cope.