General Trans thread part 2

[ChiefClerkDrumknott]

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive

Hermione oh yeah, silly me!

Mutta well obviously I can't speak for any MPs - I'd never even written to an MP before this, much less been to see one! - but I wouldn't have thought there'd be any chance of them publishing your name in any way! You could always ring their constituency or parliamentary office first to check that out if you wanted.

As luck would have it, I was the last person she saw that day so there wasn't so much time pressure, and I think I was in there for a good 15 -20 mins or so. She genuinely engaged with what I was saying, and maybe because we're both women of a similar age, it was a surprisingly normal sort of conversation in some ways, once I managed to get going.

Yes thats obviously the thing to do - I'll give them a call to check and see if I can do the same. Its a great idea peanuts.
I have written before on a different issue and got an entirely generic reply and email newsletters forever more

My other tip would be to make sure you have a copy of the report - either on a tablet or printed off - when you go in, and be aware of which bits of the report you most want to comment on are, so you can find them easily.

(Perhaps other people are so organised this is obvious but I wasn't actually that prepared and was very glad of the time in the waiting room to scroll through and mark my places!)

I think it's also worth drawing attention to this part near the beginning of the report:

9. Trans people have long endured high levels of prejudice (referred to as “transphobia”) and misunderstanding. This is manifested in numerous forms, including discrimination in a wide range of settings (including public services), hostile portrayal in the media, abuse and violence (including, in some cases, sexual assault and murder). This can undermine trans people’s career opportunities, incomes, living standards, access to social capital, quality of life, and physical and mental health.

Swap out Trans people for women and transphobia for misogyny/sexism, and voila! Every word is still true.

But trans people get to pretty much dictate the terms of the legislation, and are believed on virtually every point they make.

If we go and make our case, it's pretty much a given that we'll be fobbed off, ignored, and disbelieved. Like the women in the report who did speak out and say they wanted the single sex exemption to remain wrt to transwomen. Nope.

This is the first I have seen of Transgender Trend (the link on a post on page 15- I didn't think any group were fighting the Transgender ideas. )

Can I link to it on other threads or is there a reason eg targetting by transgenderists that this hasn't been done before???

Do you refer to a page that was linked, or to this thread?

If you mean this thread, I am not aware that it is in any way secret or somesuch, for other pages, I don't know.

Yes, I only knew about it from a link on a previous thread.

There seem to be a few groups and individuals out there fighting the trans ideology but it very much feels like all are voices in the wilderness. It doesn't help that you know you'll be vilified if you stick your head above the parapet and oppose the party line.

Some other groups/pages I have come across through MN or through links in links on MN:

Gender Apostates

4thWaveNow

The New Backlash

Thanks to all those who posted them in the first place.

Hi to all the clever non-crap-taking women here. Unlurking to say that I wrote to my MP after the Maria Miller enquiry, and she gave a proper, personal response. She definitely 'got it' and there were no pseudo-progressive platitudes. Won't drop her in it by saying who/which constituency but it did cheer me up to know there is at least one person in Westminster thinking of women in all of this. So it is worth doing!

Thanks for the links. As I understand it the Scottish Parliament is voting on the new changes to the Transgender Law as soon as the new parliament convenes, elections are 5th May so that is soon.
All parties are fully behind the changes, they might be even more extreme than those in Westminster - it's hard to know as no discussion is going on. SNP are most pro them I think, judging by the response from the SNP MP (not SMP) who replied to me angrily when I wrote with my concerns.

PeanutsOnToast re "Just reading that bit of the report again and FFS" - "What about OUR dignity and personal autonomy?? When were we ever consulted?

I DO NOT consent to sharing women only spaces with male bodied people, where is my right to make that decision?"

I am afraid what women want or may need is not something that is being taken into consideration! I've already written to my MP and got back a very standard letter from Caroline Dinenage. It talks about trans women's rights and does not address my concerns particularly. This is the woman who did not agree with same sex marriage and is now supporting the idea one can change sex.

Sadly this is all making me feel I actually want safe spaces - toilets etc which are just separate, just for me! (and for anyone else at another time!).

I don't need to put make up on in a mirror standing next to anyone else to feel like a woman.

If, like me, your MP is an old school Tory (if he didn't actually go to Eton, he might as well have done) and unlikely to want to be seen siding with us evil leftie feminists, I think we need to get them to focus on how the report will play with constituents.

It is obvious that the general public do not accept that TW are the same as biological women - this is apparent even from comments on the Guardian website, let alone less liberal media. Most people do not understand what is proposed in the report. There is little disquiet because most people think Trans-rights means rights for people who have actually undergone gender reassignment surgery. Once it hits the public consciousness that any man who chooses to call himself a woman can access any woman-only space, including single-sex wards, facilities for survivors of sexual assault etc - and that it will be against the law to stop them, there is going to be uproar.

As much as it pains me to be on the same side as the Daily Mail, I think we need to get MPs thinking about how this will play out with Mail readers, and with their constituents in general.

This is ridiculous. A person with a penis is a man, regardless of how they feel or what they are wearing at the time. Next they will be installing urinals in women's toilets for the transgender woman who likes practical toilet practice. I refuse to be bullied and coerced into sharing public conveniences with these crackpots who feel the urge to wear tights and make-up, and deny the reality of their genetic composition.

Shinynewusername. Sadly I was thinking the same. it will take someone like the Mail who loves to whip its readers into an angry froth to take on the cause when it realises what it actually means,
But tbh I think they wont give a shit because its mainly affecting women and is actually a win win for their white male readership who dont like any 'funny looking people in their toilets'

It has been somewhat depressing to be aligned on an issue with the religious right and daily mail readers, even if the rationale is coming from a completely different place.
However at least we can now say to those transactivists who like to point this out that they are on the side of Donald Trump.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/ted-cruz-accuses-donald-trump-of-political-correctness-over-transgender-bathroom-controversy-a6996666.html

Just wondering if any one you had read this in the Guardian today?
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/apr/23/a-letter-to-my-little-girl-who-identifies-as-a-boy

Imagine transgender MtF playing in women's hockey and rugby teams. There must be a higher risk of injury to the usually smaller women. Or two MtF in the wimbledon ladies final.
Also the costs - mental health care, psychiatry, psychology, let alone surgery, these are all stretched already! How can we afford to pay for this? What will be cut to provide this via the NHS?
The costs of court cases for transphobia accusations?
I think if you bring up the above they might just give it a bit more thought.

I think it would be unfair to say that all or even most people with right wing or conservative political views hate women.

I think there are lots of men (and let's face it most conservative MPs are men) who have a very protective attitude towards both the women in their lives and women in general.

These types of Conservatives and lots of Christians too are natural feminist allies when it comes to trans issues, domestic violence, porn and prostitution. They certainly won't think of themselves as hating women at all. They probably think of themselves as caring about and wanting to help women.

What they probably have little to no interest in is actually ceding any power to women.

Think of a compassionate 19th century factory owner who wants to make sure his workers have good housing and working conditions. However he has no interest in a revolution to overthrow capitalism.

Stkilda's nun. And you are right about the sports thing. Your average nice well meaning Conservative will be concerned about danger to women and children. Perhaps also their privacy and dignity.

They won't want to be prevented from hiring a female carer to provide intimate care for their elderly mother. They won't want their teenage daughter having to take a shower after PE with a teenage male. They may be concerned about young people being given hormone treatments which may make them infertile.

Arguments about women being erased or trans issues reinforcing gender stereotypes may be less interesting to them.

Lovely letter in the Guardian - and good to read a balanced view from them for once. I wonder how many of the comments will accuse her of bigotry and transphobia.

Comments on Twitter accusing the author of the letter of child abuse and calling her an abusive cunt

Its horrifying. I grew up in the 70's and from an early age I said I wanted to be a boy. I wore jeans/tshirts. At the age of 7 I persuaded my mum to allow me to have a buzzcut. when people called me sonny I couldnt have been happier. I would cry at night that I was a girl not a boy. I hated dolls and girls toys and loved lego's meccano's. maths and science subjects. I managed to persuade the local cub scout leader to let me join (even though it wasn't allowed at the time). As I got nearer puberty I prayed I wouldn't get breasts and start to look like a girl.
Funnily enough after puberty I,m fine with being female. I married had kids etc. I still don't relate to society's idea of a stereotypical woman, Make up, dresses,fashion,shoes,handbags, reality tv etc. I walk through shops and still prefer the mens clothing to the womens .But I will put a dress on for formal occasions, though it feels like I,m putting on a costume.
I sometimes sit with women at work and feel like a different species.
But I know I am female, I,m just not interested in what society tells me I should be.
If pre puberty someone would have said to me , we can make you a boy, I would have jumped at the chance. I would have been fed hormone blockers and probably ended up sterile and confused.
I look back now and realise I wanted to be a boy, not because I felt male, but because I didnt fit into stereotypical female behaviour, and in my immature mind, being a boy would have meant that people wouldn't have disapproved of my preferences, life would have been easier and I would have just been accepted.
I think we have moved on from the sexism of the 70's were I was forced to do needlework and the boys to do woodwork. But at least in the 70's I was just labelled tomboy and allowed to get on with it. I wasnt put on a lifelong path of medical intervention. I find the whole transchildren narrative chilling. It could have been me,

You must live near me italian

I dont think Caroline Dinage has womens interests at heart