General Trans thread part 2

[ChiefClerkDrumknott]

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive

quite an interesting article I was reading today on the BBC website

How one woman's 'bathroom bill' campaign went viral
www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-36085314

Great campaign! Something to laugh. The reality of it isn't very funny, but the pirate costume is.

Interesting, how transmen support the demands of transwomen ...

I suggest bathroom separation according to violence levels. The transmen can use the men's room if they insist on being misogynistic shits. (Though those who are sensible should be allowed to use the ladies' room. Safer for them that way, and those who aren't misogynist assholes are probably not much of a danger to other women.)

I am not sure why we can't have a third space, with individual lockable doors and self contained and ANY ONE can use them.

italian a third space is unacceptable to many trans activists because TW are women. If even they have had no surgery or hormones and are 6'4" and with a full beard, they are women and entitled to access all women's space.

Also because it's easier to bully women to give up their rights than campaign for rape crisis centres, refuges, hospital wards etc for TW, and let's face it TW have nothing to lose and aren't at risk by being in women's space, it's only women who lose out.

I've been doing a lot of research on the subject and can understand why Trans hate the term Autogynaphilia
From everything I've read and researched it all screams a type of sexuality rather than a body dismorphia issue - which is not shameful in itself. The only shameful aspect is trying to inflict your sexuality onto other people who don't consent or want to be implicated in it (ie invading women's spaces, forcing people who aren't interested in you sexually, etc).
If trans accept that it is a sexuality (sexually attracted to yourself as a women) then I think everyone would more forgiving in some areas (letting people dress and express themselves as they like) while being more sensible in imposing important boundaries (no men in women only spaces).
Of course, I am talking more about trans women just because I have more personal experience of men who think of themselves as women. From what I've read about trans men I think it's just an identity issue of if your not a women then "man" is the default.

Here is an interesting link into the mindset of a group of men and the reasons they like to crossdress - if this isn't Autogynaphilia I don't know what is.

www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?239218-Would-you-date-yourself&s=93f598a62b003062cb16cdb69dee8b48

Very glad to find this thread. I've posted on the trans threads in Chat and AIBU before now and once or twice on this board, but didn't realise this was ongoing. Have nc because I've been talking about this so much in RL and some of this is quite identifying!

On one of the last chat threads some people were talking about contacting their MP to address the issue of the Transgender Equality Report currently under review, the report which recommends some really worrying measures (even more worrying than the current situation!) as far as women and girls are concerned.

As far as I know, nobody got a very satisfactory response like that. I was going to write to my MP too but then decided to go and see her in person, at her constituency surgery. And I have to say it was a lot more positive than I imagine writing would have been.

She actually listened to me. And by the end of our conversation she said I'd made her rethink her position on this. She subsequently wrote to me to confirm that, and to say that she'd written to a cabinet minister to express the concerns I'd gone to her with.

The report makes truly horrifying reading. There is a recommendation to abolish the single sex exemption of trans women (currently a discretionary capacity wrt to certain women's services and employment) for those who have a GRC, and there is simulataneously a recommendation to make GRCs available virtually on demand, on the basis of self declaration alone. That's our right to assemble and support each other on a women only basis gone, right there. That's our right as women to identify who we are ourselves, gone.

There's a lot of deliberation of legal points in there and one of the most vocal contributors is someone called Peter Dunne who's actually a PhD student with a background in trans rights. This person gets taken so seriously and is afforded so much credibility, as are all the trans advocates on nearly every issue (I think the only thing they get told "no" on is the request for surgery on demand, because it would cost too much). Whereas the women's voices and the prison reform trust (arguing for maintaining the single sex exemption) just get comprehensively ignored.

Anyway. Like I say, my MP was previously of the opinion that all this was "a good thing" in terms of being about equality and rights for an oppressed group (and it's not an area she's looked into especially, so she simply didn't know a lot of what was in there) but having listened to me, she did rethink.

So it can be done.

I would really urge everyone who cares about this, and who hasn't already done so to read the full report, onerous task though it is. We need to be aware of what we're up against, of how far the trans ideology has permeated the establishment, to the point where it is now an unarguable "truth" that a transwoman is a woman. That sex is something "assigned at birth" rather than a simple biological reality; that a "deeply held gender identity" counts for exactly the same as biologically being a woman.

I really want to take this further. Looking at the report it's clear that women just weren't represented - were hardly even thought of - in any proportionate way. There were lawyers who specialise in trans rights, but no lawyers arguing the case from a feminist, pro-women POV. Surely there must be some way we can bring human rights legislation into this to demand protection for women as members of a group with a protected characteristic, ie biological sex? Surely there must be some feminist lawyers out there who haven't bought into the whole "saying a transwoman isn't a woman is transphobic" culture?

I am so, so angry about this. I want it to be seen as the misogyny it is. I want misogyny to be taken seriously, to be as taboo as all the other phobias and isms. I want us to reframe the terms of this debate, and shine a light on the regressive part of this regressive liberalism that is doing such damage to women. And I really want to connect with other women who feel the same and want to take some form of collective action.

I was thinking of starting a new thread solely for those of us who want to campaign against this ideology, starting with trying to coordinate a response to this report before the end of the review period (July, I believe). It's vital we have these discussion threads, but we also need something for those of us whose minds are already made up, who are perfectly clear about what we as women feel about this. And to work out strategies for opposing it. Anyone else think that's a good idea?

HermioneWeasley I completely agree with you but why are TWs leading the debate, they, as you say, have nothing to lose. Why aren't the stakeholders in this debate, women, being consulted. i don;t need to use a toilet with a little picture of a stick figure in a dress to identify as female but I do want to be safe.

peanuts Re " I was thinking of starting a new thread solely for those of us who want to campaign against this ideology, starting with trying to coordinate a response to this report before the end of the review period (July, I believe). It's vital we have these discussion threads, but we also need something for those of us whose minds are already made up, who are perfectly clear about what we as women feel about this. And to work out strategies for opposing it. Anyone else think that's a good idea?" Great idea, please do.

Whatever you post you will end up with a few people saying mean or unnecessary things but to be honest if that is the case, that is the case. The key bit is to raise awareness generally and to raise targeted awareness with people with power.

I got into an online row the other day and ended up feeling so got at and hurt and it wastes so much time and doesn't help. Trans activists will just say any old thing and be insulting and it gets under one's skin! but while all is is going on in public trans activists are quietly working to change laws and pull the rug out from under us!

We need to be equally organised and while debating all this openly to be making efforts to get the people in power to take note. Please do start something and please do let us know how to be involved.

I was on nights last night and was thinking about this issue a lot. It seems almost insurmountable, Transrights currently seem the like the cause de jour and any dissent is very aggressively and vocally shot down, making it difficult for woman to put their heads over the parapet. I know I have personally stopped myself from responding to the 'we just want to pee' posts on facebook for fear of the vitriol I would receive. It means our voices just arent being heard.
I honestly think most people dont realise the full impact of this. I know I didnt. I spent my teens and twenties socialising in gay clubs due to the large number of gay friends I had, so cross bathroom use was never an issue to me. But I never felt threatened, drag queens were invariable gay so not an issue, transexuals were not a threat , and transvestites were tolerated for what they were, men who got off on dressing like a 'lady' part time. But not trying to live their lives as one.(using historical terms because that was what was used then) they were present in our bathrooms by mutual consent and with permission. They didnt force their way in.

The spectre of the self identifying woman just never really reared its head,

meddie I know, I went to a 'tranny' bar as youngster, that's what it was called the 'Tranny club'. I was wearing flat heels and everyone else was about six foot plus in heels.

I know about not speaking out because you get shouted down. We need to work a bit more smart. A few well sent emails or letter could have more effect than tons of messages on Facebook getting called names!

Italian thanks for your support, I will go ahead - but yes, of course there's no way to control who posts on it or what they say. I suppose I just thought if something is framed as a kind of support group for those of us who are genuinely freaked out by the erosion of our rights and even our identity, rather than a debate of the issues, then if someone does come along and start the whole argument it would be easier just to ignore them and not engage.

meddie I know what you mean, we never saw this coming. And yes, the transactivist movement is so strong and vociferous that it does feel impossible to take on, particularly because of the way they have co-opted the moral high ground and make us out to be the discriminatory bigots if we don't go along with the whole ideology.

I haven't had to deal with a lot of the social media stuff because most of my RL friends are just blithely unaware of all this well they were but they're not now given that I won't stop banging on about it but I did find out that one friend I don't often see is a proper brainwashed trans-ideologue when I told her about going to see my MP. And yes, there was pure vitriol in her tone, she was absolutely castigating me for my wicked heartlessness and prejudice. We had to just end the discussion and agree not to talk about it any more, but it really is the elephant in the room. Painful. Glad she's not in my everyday life tbh.

But having said all that, I was really chuffed that my MP listened to me and genuinely reassessed what she thought as a result of what I was saying. And it's our MPs who are going to vote on this, so every MP we can reach to let them know that this isn't the benign, liberal loveliness they think it is, matters.

I think we have to remember that most MPs won't have given this much consideration at all and will be inclined to go along with the current narrative that this is a marvellous step towards equality for all, with no losers, only entirely positive anti-discriminatory gains.

That's what we have to challenge. We have to spell out how women are going to lose out and how it matters because we are already disadvantaged, we are already discriminated against ourselves. We have to point out that there is a clash of interests, and that what is happening here is that trans rights are being acquired at the expense of women's rights and safety, not at the expense of the privileged class.

I do think that going to see your MP in person is much more effective than just writing, or if that's not possible, then a personal letter rather than a template.

I sent a personal letter to my MP already, got a response with a note on the bottom saying thanks for making me aware of this issue. but I might follow up with a meeting now, as you say, every MP who gets their eyes opened is a possible vote against self identification laws

...easier just to ignore them and not engage. that is the best way, not engaging is actually very annoying for the other poster!

Peanuts when will MPS get to vote, and on what exactly, we need to be prepared.

Italian I'm not exactly sure of how it works, I will do my best to find out.

This is the report that has been produced. It was published in January of this year and I believe there's a six month period during which it's reviewed (or something like that!) so I presume there will be some kind of vote in July. My MP did confirm something about six months, so I think I'm on the right track there.

The vote ŵill be on amending existing legislation - the Gender Recognition Act of 2004 and the Equality Act of 2010 - rather than bringing in a new act altogether. There are various recommendations at the end of the different sections of the Report, so I presume these would be the amendments that will be voted on.

The two things that concern me the most are the ones I mentioned upthread:

Exemptions in respect of trans people

132. We recommend that the Equality Act be amended so that the occupational requirements provision and/or the single-sex/separate services provision shall not apply in relation to discrimination against a person whose acquired gender has been recognised under the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

That means that anyone with a GRC could access any women's spaces or services and it would be illegal to prevent them. Anyone with a GRC could apply for any position that was for women only and to reject them on the grounds of them being trans - ie not actually a woman - would be illegal. Because in law they would be 100% a woman.

At the same time, it's going to be made massively easier to get a GRC [Gender Recognition Certificate]:

44. While we recognise the importance of the Gender Recognition Act as pioneering legislation when it was passed, it is clear that the Act is now dated. e medicalised approach regarding mental-health diagnosis pathologises trans identities; as such, it runs contrary to the dignity and personal autonomy of applicants.

45. Within the current Parliament, the Government must bring forward proposals to update the Gender Recognition Act, in line with the principles of gender self-declaration that have been developed in other jurisdictions. In place of the present medicalised, quasi-judicial application process, an administrative process must be developed, centred on the wishes of the individual applicant, rather than on intensive analysis by doctors and lawyers.

So - any male born (and likely male bodied) person who identifies as a woman would have the right to access to any and all women's spaces and services and opportunities, with very little effort on their part to get that GRC.

I am fundamentally against the whole principle that a man can be or become a woman at all, but at the moment these are the issues that I think are most urgent.

Wow, thanks Peanut.

Yes, any man will just be able to complete an online form and legally be a woman. No surgery, hormones or counselling required. Can still look and act 100% like a man, but be next to you in a hospital ward, be naked in the showers at your gym, insist on volunteering at your local rape crisis centre

Just been having a read, basically it seems very bleak for females.

We have got to fight this, this is madness.

It's fucking horrific, isn't it, Hermione and Italian.

meddie sorry you had a formulaic response to your letter but yes, I think going to see them in person might be more productive.

We need to somehow get the message out there that there is a whole groundswell of opinion against this, and that its coming from us liberal types rather than the Neanderthals.

It's become so accepted that this is the face of liberalism, of inclusivity, of tolerance and progress. How do we turn that around and show it up as the screaming misogyny it actually is?! We need some PR guru...

Peanuts or anyone else - do you know if your anonymity is respected if you see your MP? I'd think about going to see my MP in person if so but wouldn't be able to otherwise I think.

I don't have time to read the whole report- but has someone written a template letter I could personalIse and send to my mp?

Muttaburra I should imagine your anonymity would be respected, yes, especially if you ask for it to be.

I had to give my name and address when I went to see mine, which I was happy to do - obviously they need to know you are a constituent - and it didn't actually occur to me to mention anonymity, but you don't normally hear MPs referring to individual people by their names if and when they do discuss issues like this; usually if they mention anything it's in terms of "a constituent raised this with me". Is that the kind of thing you mean?

Squirrel there's a link to a template on this page from transgender trend which is worth a look at anyway.

The trouble with letters is that the longer they are, the less likely people are to take notice of them I think. But they need to be a certain length to be useful! It's a tricky equation and one I got round by going in person so I could go on and on at some length

Just reading that bit of the report again and FFS

""It runs contrary to the dignity and personal autonomy of applicants"

What about OUR dignity and personal autonomy?? When were we ever consulted?

I DO NOT consent to sharing women only spaces with male bodied people, where is my right to make that decision?

peanuts but male to trans people are the most oppressed group ever so what women want doesn't matter.

And is boring and old school.

Yes thats the kind of thing I mean. I'm a psychiatrist so my view is partially informed by that experience (and by reading mumsnet!) but I don't want to find myself in professional trouble over it. How long did you get with your MP?