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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

General Trans thread part 2

999 replies

ChiefClerkDrumknott · 07/01/2016 08:29

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go Wink

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive Hmm

OP posts:
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TheWatchersCouncil · 18/01/2016 11:25

Archery - yes. Possibly because lesbian sex isn't seen as 'real sex' (particularly by certain men).

CrayonShavings · 18/01/2016 12:11

Thanks for posting that link glen, I've used the template to compose a very long email to my MP.

I'd be very interested to read his response. He's always written back in the past when I've contacted him about other things. If I get a reply I'll post it here.

I never got anything back from Caroline Dineage.

Imustgodowntotheseaagain · 18/01/2016 12:25

I accidentally dated a transvestite. His reasons for dressing as a women were dark and quite disturbing. "Passing" and then revealing his "surprise" was one of the ways he got sexual kicks. And we're supposed to allow him and men like him into our spaces.

I've been dwelling on the outrage displayed in the inquiry evidence about the Gender Tecognition Certificate and he feeling that it's some horrific burden. I got married, i changed my name and had to show my marriage certificate to innumberable third parties. How is a GRC any different? But if you think that men haven't had the same experience of having to validate their 'married' identity, their outrage makes more sense.

I'm starting to believe a lot of the things identified as 'transphobia' are just men discovering all the shit that comes with being female in a patriarchal society. It's not just wearing frocks, sparkly shoes and make-up.

Darrowisred · 18/01/2016 16:48

Saw a post on FB today from a feminist page - 21 facts women didn't know about their vaginas. Cue screeches of 'transphobia!' And reminders that 'not all women have vaginas' and 'not all owners of vaginas are women'. It was suggested that future posts might say 'vagina owners' instead of'women'. They are trying, and succeeding, to censor how we define ourselves and redefine what it means to be a woman and it makes me so angry I could scream.

CrayonShavings · 18/01/2016 17:57

I saw an article on Everyday Feminism, "why do men send dick pics?" and yet, in the comments there were no cries of "how violent - trans women send dick pics too you massive terf!!!!!1!!" (Although I was tempted to post that myself)

Any articles about vaginas have a similar response to the one you saw Darrow. Funny, that.

Imustgodowntotheseaagain · 18/01/2016 21:31

The Vagina Monologues is transphobic, apparently.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/16/vagina-monologues-eve-ensler-rejects-mount-holyoke-college-claims-reductionist-exclusive

Fox are going to have some difficulty with their remake of the Rocky Horror Picture Show!

TheWomanInTheWall · 18/01/2016 21:41

This is interesting from another current thread re military service in the US:

GENDER CHANGE / TRANSGENDERS

Individuals who are born female and have a gender change are not required to register. U.S. citizens or immigrants who are born male and have a gender change are still required to register.

www.sss.gov/Registration-Info/Who-Registration

slugseatlettuce · 18/01/2016 21:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ripples101 · 18/01/2016 22:03

Ok, this is a hard post for me to write, so please bear with me.

I've lurked on this board for quite some time, read numerous posts, agreed with some, disagreed with others. When I first came across this site (and this section of this site in particular), I was disagreeing more than I was agreeing with what I was reading. But what I read lead me to think more about what was being said and try to understand why such views were being expressed. Doing so has resulted in me stepping back and re-evaluating my own subjective view, and more importantly, my own actual identity.

I am 44 years old. I am male. I am transgendered. I have no desire to undergo surgery of any kind. I like to dress in clothes that can't be purchased in the men's section in stores. The society that I live in would deem me as a crossdresser for this reason. When I was younger - a child - I used to dress in secret, and I carried with me a sense of guilt and shame, for even at such a young age (just before my 5 birthday being my first time) I knew that my family would not only mock me but punish me if they ever found out. So I kept it hidden.

I'm glad that I wasn't I wasn't born 5 years ago and feeling the same urges today that I did back then. For I feel that I would have been led down a very different path to the one that I have ended living in my life up to this date. If I was born 5 years ago, then given what is currently happening I feel that I may have been encouraged to transition, despite my tender years, irrespective of my immaturity. I know that that would have been the wrong decision made for me. And it makes me sad that many do seem to be placing decisions on children who have not yet actually had the experience to fully understand, or to fully comprehend their own identity. If such a decision was made for me, at such a young age, well, knowing what I know now about myself 40 years later, it's an understatement to say that I would have resented those that made such a decision. It wouldn't however be an overstatement to say that I probably wouldn't be alive today. Simply put, such a life-changing decision should not be forced upon the shoulders of those so young.

I say that I am transgendered. Well now I am taking that back. Because the word no longer resonates with me. While I will continue to dress, I simply can not abide what the word transgender now stands for. I can not abide the arugments put forth by trans-activists, who claim to speak for me based on a shared identification. I can not abide the extent that transgendered people are seemingly intent on encroaching on women's spaces and more importantly women's identities, with the intent to claim the word "women" for themselves at the expense of those who are actually born female. Emulating/impersonating is one thing. Trying to redefine what it actually means to be the people they are emulating/impersonating is something else entirely. Something that I can not/will not ever agree with.

I rarely go out dressed in women's clothes. On the few occasions that I have, I have never used women's bathrooms, for I'm not a woman. That is not my space and I don't want to encroach on a space that is not intended for me, irrespective of how I present myself.

I have now reached my own personal trans-peak. I can't associate with trans people anymore, even though I would be identified as being trans myself. I just want to say I'm sorry for being part of a group of people that has resulted in so many women feeling uncomfortable, threatened, violated, devalued. That was never my own intention, but it is becoming more and more clear to me that while it may not have been my intention, it is nevertheless becoming a consequence of being trans. For it seems that the more trans people are being accepted, the more they are seemingly intent on over-stepping the place in this world in which they actually should reside. And that makes me feel cold inside. I just can not relate to that. Nor do I want to.

TheWomanInTheWall · 18/01/2016 22:05

Thanks for your post, ripples.

TheWomanInTheWall · 18/01/2016 22:05

I'm a born silver lining finder, slugseat!

EmpressOfTheVulvaCupcakes · 18/01/2016 22:12

You're all right, ripples. Have some Cake.

LyndaNotLinda · 18/01/2016 22:18

Flowers ripples - thank you for your post and your candour. I really hope that the majority feel like you do but their voices are very quiet.

Would you consider writing to your MP with your concerns? There's a link in glen's post above at Sun 17-Jan-16 15:01:23. I suspect your POV may have a bit more resonance than those written by women.

Darrowisred · 18/01/2016 23:25

Thank you ripples x

nooka · 19/01/2016 06:29

Thank you for your post ripples. It seems so sad that men have such limited options when it comes to dressing, so that wearing a dress is something to hide and be ashamed of. I'm very uncomfortable with a lot of drag stuff as it often feels like an unkind parody, but I don't see why it's still not OK for men to wear dresses or pretty things.

There's a whole lot wrong with women's fashion and the pressures that come with it, but I've always enjoyed androgyny personally, whether that's wearing 'boyfriend' style things, gender neutral stuff or menswear, and it's great that that's possible without much censure or comment (although now of course there is the risk of being labelled trans with the expectations that might come from that).

I also think the trans umbrella is now so big as to be almost meaningless. I read a trans academic today claiming that 1 in 200 people were trans, and it just made me wonder what definition was being used.

onahorsewithnoname · 19/01/2016 08:25

ripples, It would be helpful more people like you made their views known to a wider audience.
I'm sure if our legislators received an influx of communication like your post they would be suitably enlightened.

ArcheryAnnie · 19/01/2016 09:31

Thank you, ripples. It might help to know that there's other people who are (or have) identify as trans (including those who have physically transitioned and those who have not) who feel like you, and who have started speaking out in defence of women's space and women's right to boundaries and autonomy.

ShortcutButton · 19/01/2016 09:51

I also appreciate your very candid post ripples thank you. And I'm sorry for the struggles you have/had with your identity

I wish you could be a louder voice in the trans narrative and the debate around women's spaces. You could be so helpful, I feel, in given counsel to younger people experiencing feelings of being unhappy with their gender roles/body

seagreengirl · 19/01/2016 14:09

Flowers ripples thank you for your moving post. I am glad that you have found this safe space to post.

TheWatchersCouncil · 19/01/2016 15:07

ripples - you have nothing to apologise for. I am so sorry that things have been made so difficult and fraught for you and that the word 'transgender' has now been defined and 'owned' in a way that makes it hard for you to use it as part of your identity. Being able to authentically use language to define yourself is so important (and part of the reason why we rail against 'cis'). Being robbed of that language must be shocking for you.

There are sane voices out there. Voices that might be helpful. I know I keep banging on about Miranda Yardley Grin. These people also seem sane:
genderapostates.com/who-are-gender-apostates/

XX

DanaBarrett · 19/01/2016 19:33

Ripples, thank you for your post. I urge you to follow the link to the gender apostates, Miranda and the rest are utterly great :) and you should feel comfortable there. Your post was very brave.

Alisvolatpropiis · 19/01/2016 20:16

Thank you for your post ripples

ripples101 · 19/01/2016 20:49

Thanks so much for all your responses. The thought of writing to my local mp hadn't even crossed my mind, but I agree that this is something that I should do. Although it saddens me that my POV may be given more consideration than the POV of women who it is actually directly affecting.

There was a debate on a crossdressing website a few months back that I didn't get the chance to take part in, because the admins of that site decided to close the thread in question, despite it producing an interesting discussion from members that were both for and against it. That they closed the thread was something that I found insulting right away, and I made my feelings known the admins in this respect. Alas the thread remained closed nonetheless.

In regards to this particular thread, the overwhelming thought as to why it was ok for cd's to use female toilets was because they didn't feel safe in male toilets. I couldn't understand this reasoning. I mean, they had the "courage" to go out, dress in a way that isn't expected of them, were more than likely identified by those around them as men anyway, yet when it came to relieving themselves, felt that it was ok to bypass the thoughts and feelings of women and enter a space whereby any woman present may feel the very same thing that they themselves were intent on avoiding. I couldn't help but wonder - so it's ok for them to risk others feeling unsafe as long as they themselves feel safe? That just stuck me as an incredibly selfish attitude to have.

Watchers - thanks for posting that link, and Dana, thanks for encouraging me to follow it. I'm going to check it out now. And thank you everyone again who has offered me words of comfort, for that means a lot to me. seagreengirl, your comment that I have found a safe space here to post really touched me, and made me feel incredibly welcome, as all of you have. But I won't post here too much, for I don't want to risk making myself a focus of this thread. That's not my intention. My intention is rather to say that I'm a trans-person who values what it is that all of you have to say, and that I'm a trans-person who agrees with and shares your concerns as to the direction in which the "trans-movement" seems intent on heading. I know I can't change that alone, but if I can at least find others who share similar concerns, and encourage us to become more vocal, then who knows? All I know now is that I used to feel ok being trans. Because of other, very vocal trans people however, that is no longer the case. Bottom line however is I will only have myself to blame if I don't speak up.

TheWatchersCouncil · 19/01/2016 22:29

Ripples - I am so pleased you decided to post again Smile. Your integrity and thoughtfulness is very striking. I understand your hesitation about posting too much on this thread. But please don't be too self effacing! I would absolutely welcome your voice here. But I also understand that engaging in too much depth here could become burdensome. Yes, in a sense you are right that if you don't speak up you will only have yourself to blame (although I think you are being too harsh on yourself). However I hate to think that someone feels they must stand up and step forward. You have as much a right to quiet, uneventful enjoyment of life as anyone, and your identity should not override that.

As well as welcoming your voice here, I would also like to offer support and a friendly ear (eye?) should you ever need it.

CoteDAzur · 20/01/2016 07:54

It is great to have you here, ripples. Very refreshing to see posts from a sensible, reasoned trans person on MN. I hope you will continue to post and show everyone here that the transactivist viewpoint is not shared by all trans people. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.