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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we have a general Trans thread?

1000 replies

Brugmansia · 04/12/2015 02:33

Sorry for another trans thread and I feel this is a bit of an imposition given I don't post really.

Anyway reading FWR over the past few months has re-radicalised me. I've been reading lots here and wider.

Anyway just now been watching TV and there's been some stuff that's given me the rage but didn't seem to fit in existing threads or it's own thread.

Anyway thing that gave me the rage.
On BBC3 program on transgemder teen's the doctor just said "creating a vagina". Are doctors redefining vagina as pocket rather than a passage? Makes me want to screem.

Also Sarah Ditum being no platformed.

OP posts:
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venusinscorpio · 08/12/2015 21:46

no worries mide. I think I took a while to submit the post and several other posts were posted before I did.

dontcallmecis · 08/12/2015 22:01

But phobia and discrimination are two different things entirely.

howtorebuild · 08/12/2015 22:51

Penis/muscle/body/hormone/build/socialisationphobia more like, though that's rational seeing as 95% of the current prison population is male, source MoJ, today in parliament.

Onnedheil · 09/12/2015 12:16

Speaking from a medical background (studying for Biosciences) I agree with the biology distinctions of Male female sexual reproduction. Its not exactly difficult. But there is more to being a woman than what is between our legs! and that point seems to always be overlooked. I'm always open to talk about medical scientific fact regarding this.

And, as a scientist, I keep up to date with all the medical research. Right now, this year 2015, the are pioneering Total vagina/womb/uterus transplants. For women who were born with medical complications such as cancer or birth defects. In fact in January 2015 they successfully delivered the first baby to be carried to term using uterine implant from the donor mother. And Trans women I know have expressed if they would be able to access that level of medical technology and have a fully functioning uterus and womb, then they would.

So, my only real question is, when a woman is a woman, regardless of if she has or has not functioning sexual reproductive organs. If that woman was born with XX chromosome but no working sexual reproductive organs would she be a woman? If a woman who has fully functioning sexual reproductive organs who happens to have been born with a rare condition XY is she then not a woman? If a trans woman has a fully functional uterus and womb implanted in replacement of her previous reproductive organs, is she not a woman?

What scares me in this dialogue is the focus on the genitals of a woman and not what a woman actually is.

But what upsets me most of all, is that when i go to the gym with my friend and we get undressed in the changing room, and we work out and then we go home. at no point does anyone know she happens to be trans, because she's very beautiful. And you could never tell unless its a full medical inspection of her private parts.

What upsets me even more, is that aggression and violence is linked to men and men only. as if women are so pious and kind. This isn't reality, its never been reality. Women, XX naturally born women, who are in prison for sociopathic murderers, Paedophiles yes and even rape of both men and women etc. The proportional percentage of women who commit those crimes is less than men why argue fact, fact and reason is what the point of this dialogue is supposed to be about. Are these women are saints? no, they are sick individuals who are in prison because they are violent offenders.

on a personal level a friend of mine a lesbian, not that it matters, attacked her partner in a fit of rage and violence with knife, cutting her arm above the elbow and almost killed her. The focus of the attack (because i abhor using the word victim) said she would wait for her to come out from prison, that she blames herself for triggering the other in the attack. These are two women, XX and XX naturally born women. If it was a man, we'd be painting the broad brush of all men are rapists. Male violence, if she was trans we'd be saying she just a typical man. but she wasn't she was a Natural born woman and so are most of the offenders in prison.

What I am saying is that regardless of the medical factors, factors that are as mailable from my perceptive as paint. A woman is a woman is a woman. And violence does not make them less of a woman, and being born with differing sexual reproductive organs also doesn't make a woman less of a woman.

Maybe i should have kept my first post a little more low key, but I read the thread,, and although i agree with a lot of what you all say, I disagree on the point that a woman is her vagina, because that really is misogyny. In my opinion.

EmpressOfTheVulvaCupcakes · 09/12/2015 12:28

I think we're saying exactly the opposite really, Onnedheil.

We're saying that there's an infinite variety to women's brains, that no woman's personality is limited by her sex, and that the only things all women have in common are socialisation and being born into the sex with reproductive potential.

The idea of women being defined by some intrinsic personality characteristics is a lot more limiting IMO, and ties straight back into gender identities / stereotypes.

VestalVirgin · 09/12/2015 12:38

What scares me in this dialogue is the focus on the genitals of a woman and not what a woman actually is.

A woman is a human being, first and foremost. A human being who has a not only a vagina, but an uterus, and a whole female body. Because, obviously, otherwise she would be a man.

As someone with a medical background you should know that there are more biological differences between women and men than just "a vagina". Men don't have a woman's skin, they don't have a woman's hip bones, they don't have all the things women have to enable us to give birth.

But what upsets me most of all, is that when i go to the gym with my friend and we get undressed in the changing room, and we work out and then we go home. at no point does anyone know she happens to be trans, because she's very beautiful.

So that is what a woman is, according to your definition? "Beautiful"? Scrap that.
If I was ugly as hell, I'd still be a woman. And your beautiful friend still is no woman.
Because being a woman is not about beauty. If you throw around words like "misogyny" you should know better than to link womanhood to beauty.

Men are more violent than women, this is a very obvious fact, and trans"women" are violent at just the same rates as men are, there is research proving it. Maybe it is biology, maybe it is socialisation, I don't care which, because trans"women" have male socialisation.

You could avoid that whole discussion about vaginas, that you so hate, by not allying with trans"women" who demand access to women's only spaces.

If your trans friend manages to pass, nice for them. They don't need laws to ensure their access to women's locker rooms, then, because no one complains, right?

But the translobby wants more than that. They want to get to walk into women's spaces, sporting a beard and being two metres tall and hulking. Because they claim some internal "feeling" of being a woman is more important than actually being a woman according to the thousands of years old definition men have always used to oppress us.

Transactivism is misogyny in disguise. In a rather poor disguise.

SettlinginNicely · 09/12/2015 12:52

Just popped in to give a new link. Seems that media is catching up to where Mumsnet has already gone. It's like reading a precis of the trans threads over the last 6 months.

www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2015/12/gender_critical_trans_women_the_apostates_of_the_trans_rights_movement.html

Cerseirys · 09/12/2015 13:11

But the translobby wants more than that. They want to get to walk into women's spaces, sporting a beard and being two metres tall and hulking. Because they claim some internal "feeling" of being a woman is more important than actually being a woman according to the thousands of years old definition men have always used to oppress us.

Before anyone accuses Vestal of exaggeration, just take a look at this "woman"...

JoanFerguson · 09/12/2015 13:16

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JoanFerguson · 09/12/2015 13:17

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Brugmansia · 09/12/2015 13:20

Me too. I guess lots of us follow the same people on twitter.Smile

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VestalVirgin · 09/12/2015 13:24

@Cerseirys: And he claims to "bring out the inner lesbian" in women ... I rather think he brings out the inner heterosexual woman who is attracted to gender non conforming men.

Though I think he is rather more feminine than some of the blokes who will just walk into women's locker rooms to perv on the women. After all, they don't even have to explain themselves, as we are required to not question their gender identity if and when they walk into the women's shower waving their dicks.

stealtheatingtunnocks · 09/12/2015 13:30

Cerseirys - so, that's a person who was born male, raised male, and now feels female, but, hasn't opted for any hormonal treatment, or plans to do so, has a female partner and considers themself to be a lesbian? With waxed arms but a beard?

Is that a person with transgender issues, or, someone who's a tranvestite?

Either way, strikes me we hear an awful lot more about M-F trans issues than we do about F-M. Gobby menfolks, innit?

IamTheWhoreofBabylon · 09/12/2015 13:36

It really doesn't bother me what anyone does so long as they are not harming others
What is really pissing me off is a small group deciding what it means to be a woman
Why are they not redefining what it means to be a man? They are biologically men if they want to be more 'feminine' that's fine

I do not want to share the tiny changing room in my lcoal pool with a male bodied person. Sex segregation is what I am happy with
The obsession with getting into women's spaces is dangerous and, imo, cause for suspicion

VestalVirgin · 09/12/2015 13:42

Why are they not redefining what it means to be a man?

Because other men would object to that, and men's opinions (very unlike women's) have to be respected?

The obsession with getting into women's spaces is dangerous and, imo, cause for suspicion

Exactly. I'd be happily defend their right to wear dresses and sparkly rings and make-up, if they'd keep out of women's spaces.

howtorebuild · 09/12/2015 14:06

What is really pissing me off is a small group deciding what it means to be a woman

It's not the size of the group it's the power they have. You have the Media, Law and medicine in this group.

Cerseirys · 09/12/2015 14:35

Either way, strikes me we hear an awful lot more about M-F trans issues than we do about F-M. Gobby menfolks, innit?

I once had to work on a publication with a bunch of trans people and the TM were very wary of the TW as they felt that TW, as they used to be men, tend to be more domineering and shout louder so that they are heard and their issues take priority. TM, as they've been socialised as women, are nowhere near as dominant.

slugseatlettuce · 09/12/2015 14:50

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slugseatlettuce · 09/12/2015 14:57

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HermioneWeasley · 09/12/2015 17:11

Case from 2009 where a man convicted of manslaughter and attempted rape won his case to be moved to a women's prison. Apparently it was against his "human rights" to keep him in a male prison. The human rights of the women to be safe from a killer and rapist obviously don't matter

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8237886.stm

howtorebuild · 09/12/2015 17:19

Wow and a rapist too.

The costs to the state must be massive for this individual. Their targets will have required assistance, police, NHS, Prison and legal aid to name a few and all for outcomes that do not reduce the suicide rates. Clearly current treatment is not working for anyone.

£££

Ministry of Justice and prison authorities had argued that "A" was no more likely to be accepted at a women's prison, where she would require long periods of segregation at an extra cost of £80,000 a year.

parachutesilk · 09/12/2015 17:24

Onnedheil - of course there is a great deal more to a woman than her vagina, or her genitals in general. There's a great deal more to any person than their genitals. Another way of putting that is to say that there's a great deal more to any person than the label they happen to be given based on those genitals.

When 'woman' is used for biological realities rather than highly subjective feelings, then those biological characteristics are the only things that the label points to - all other characteristics like behaviours and personalities can be free to vary over the full range of human behaviours, likes, dislikes and so on. That is truly liberating for women (and men).

If we stop linking the label 'woman' with biology, then what exactly do all the people who bear that label have in common? That they like pink and speaking quietly, are nurturing and/or 'feel like women'? Something else? Using 'woman' as the label for those sorts of personality characteristics, rather than for the more circumscribed and objective set of biological characteristics - now that is reducing and limiting women. Expanding the category 'woman' to include male bodies, as per the dominant transactivist narrative, requires a new association - the label now belongs to 'feeling like a woman' or 'behaving like a woman', not biology. Lo and behold, we're now saying there's a fixed way to 'feel like a woman' or 'behave like a woman', which we weren't saying when we used the label only to refer to biological sex.

I disagree on the point that a woman is her vagina, because that really is misogyny. In my opinion.

It's not that a woman is her vagina, it's that the label 'woman' doesn't have to mean anything more than that. The person who bears that label is of course far, far more than just her biological sex characteristics.

vesuvia · 09/12/2015 18:07

Onnedheil wrote - "when i go to the gym with my friend and we get undressed in the changing room, and we work out and then we go home. at no point does anyone know she happens to be trans, because she's very beautiful. And you could never tell unless its a full medical inspection of her private parts."

I think medical examinations would not be appropriate, but they would find differences between women and transwomen.

I think the key point here is that if a full medical examination of a (male) transwoman's private parts (and other body parts) is done by someone who knows about human anatomy, the examiner could tell that the examinee is male. If the examiner did a full medical examination of a (female) woman, they could tell that the examinee is female.

I think this difference is one of the things that makes a (male) transwoman not a (female) woman.

It could be claimed that such full medical exams are unethical or invasions of privacy or not practical etc. Examinations may well be all of those things, but I think these are not good reasons to ignore, distort or deny reality or facts. This distortion and denial is happening now, with the consequence of forcing society in general, and female women in particular, to accept male transwomen as women (i.e. a female adults), even if the (male) transwomen may look female only at first or second glance. In the past 10 years or so, governments have decided that "looks female at first glance" is good enough to count as being female, and even that bar is being lowered as more and more transwomen are keeping their male genitals.

Some transwomen obtain gender recognition certificates stating that they are women. Just the fact of possessing such a certificate means that these transwomen are different from female women because female women do not have gender recognition certificates stating that they are women.

I think almost everyone can understand and accept that in those taste comparison TV adverts when someone can't tell the difference between butter in bowl A and margarine in bowl B, it doesn't mean that both bowls contain butter.
BUT
compare that logic to a very popular opinion in transgenderism: when someone fails to spot a transwoman's male sex from yards away, we are supposed to accept this as evidence that validates their belief that women and transwomen are identical.

IamTheWhoreofBabylon · 09/12/2015 18:39

It blows my mind that the likes of Lila Perry and the guy up thread in the girls changing room are happy to force female girls to share a space where they will be naked with a male bodied person
That they don't care about others being scared or uncomfortable
And Lila Perry with their penis swinging free under a short skirt looks like no girl I have ever seen before. That video males me very suspicious about motivation

ShortcutButton · 09/12/2015 18:46

Urgh, its so fucking tedious. I could not give a fuck if you want to grow a beard and wear a dress. Really, who cares. I dont care who you have sex with or how to they or you identify. Its totally inane and vacuous. I couldnt be less interested

I just want women to keep there spaces. I don't want people with penises sharing changing rooms with my adolescent daughters. And I want women to be able to organise on women's issues without including men

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