Can we have a general Trans thread?

[Brugmansia]

Sorry for another trans thread and I feel this is a bit of an imposition given I don't post really.

Anyway reading FWR over the past few months has re-radicalised me. I've been reading lots here and wider.

Anyway just now been watching TV and there's been some stuff that's given me the rage but didn't seem to fit in existing threads or it's own thread.

Anyway thing that gave me the rage.
On BBC3 program on transgemder teen's the doctor just said "creating a vagina". Are doctors redefining vagina as pocket rather than a passage? Makes me want to screem.

Also Sarah Ditum being no platformed.

Thank you I'll take a look at those. vesuvia it's very early days, I have no idea how the school is going to respond, and I suspect they don't have a clue yet either. The student is in yr11 and due to leave in the summer so I suspect some sort of fudge will be sorted out. I don't know if we have any official policies relating to to this.

We did have an lgbt campaigner in to talk to the girls a few weeks back (homophobia is a big problem in our school) but I wasn't there. I'd be very interested to know what he said about trans issues.

I wonder if your point about there being an atmosphere of homophobia within the girls at the school is relevant? I have read many women who previously identified as trans-men say that they did so out of a sense of internalised lesphobia, and they found it easier to be a 'man' who liked women rather than a lesbian. I imagine that in an all girls school, a lone (possibly butch?) lesbian would have a very hard time. This could be her way of outing herself and reconciling her attraction to other girls without making herself a target of homophobia.

This could be her way of outing herself and reconciling her attraction to other girls without making herself a target of homophobia.

Good point - while there is less pressure for other gender-conforming behaviours in an all-girls school, it doesn't prevent the girls from being lesbophobic.

I, too, read many accounts by older butch lesbians who suspect they might have identified as trans if that had been a common thing in their youth, and by younger lesbians who used to identify as trans before they made peace with being lesbians.

qumquat I signed up just to comment on this. I went to an all-girls secondary school which was also very homophobic, and I was an awkward, nerdy, tomboy who really didn't fit in well with my peers. I was also (in retrospect) really obviously in the closet. Now I've grown up and come to terms with myself and I'm an out and happily partnered butch lesbian.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that had trans identities been all over the internet in the 00s, when I was a teenager, the way they are now, I would have started identifying as FTM. It's an instant and easy answer to why you feel different and why everything feels awkward and weird, why you don't want to dress or look like other girls, why people keep telling you the way you behave is wrong, etc etc. It honestly terrifies me to think that if I was a few years younger, I would probably be on testosterone.

I think 4th Wave Now is a really good blog that you could show your colleague. It's written by a mother whose daughter (until very recently) insisted she was FTM. She writes a lot of good stuff about the recent explosion in trans identities amongst teenagers and draws on scientific literature a lot. I also cannot recommend enough reading the blogs of women who previously identified as FTM and have detransitioned- they've lived the scope of these issues. Maria Catt and Crash Chaos Cats are two of my favourites, as they're both excellent writers into the bargain.

That's a fascinating perspective and really makes sense.

I concur with the view that we are all somewhere on a continuum, however extreme or middle of the road - of sexual orientation and of feminity-masculinity, both as old as time, both completely natural. I honestly don't think it is "natural" to have your genitalia surgically altered, to have to take extensive and lifetime courses of hormones etc in order to trans to another sex. And this would never even have been possible until recently. Am I even allowed to say this?? I hope so, the conversation needs to be had. I get sexual confusion, gender confusion, issues with accepting one's biological sex. But to be butchered away from what one was born??? Ludicrous. And deeply sad for anyone questioning their sexuality to feel that the only acceptable way out of this is to transgender rather than to be bi/straight/homosexual/whatever. A societal move away from bloody pink or blue as soon as a baby is born would be a good start. As would an alleviation of the huge pressure on young women to have false everything - false nails/hair extensions/falsely body-hair free/false boobs- push-up padded bras etc...we're never enough as we are! And what a huge waste of our time/effort/£/resources/brain power is frittered away on this.

As would an alleviation of the huge pressure on young women to have false everything - false nails/hair extensions/falsely body-hair free/false boobs- push-up padded bras etc...we're never enough as we are!

Yes ... and I think the fact that actual women are considered lacking in femininity unless they have surgery contributes to the illusion that "a woman" is a surgically constructed, artificial thing, not an actual person who happens to have a specific set of reproductive organs.

Indeed, VV, very true

Sodium that's interesting, I've no direct experience in either situation but to me I can't see how identifying as trans would be any easier than coming out. In my mind both would be incredibly difficult.

Sodium that's interesting, I've no direct experience in either situation but to me I can't see how identifying as trans would be any easier than coming out. In my mind both would be incredibly difficult.

It is part of the trans narrative that trans are discriminated against so horribly, but this is actually not true.

Patriarchies of all sorts much more easily accept some single person changing genders than someone threatening the concept of gender as such.

Countries that stone homosexuals to death have gender reassignment surgeries legalised and all that.

Albania's sworn virgins were/are legally treated like men, they just weren't allowed to marry (men OR women).

Look at all the cultures that have really rigid gender roles but have a "third gender" (usually some sort of castrated male)

Of course a girls' school is not a fully developed patriarchal culture in itself, but it reflects the opinions of society outside of the school. Trans have much more of a lobby than lesbians - as proven by the fact that there are people who use "cotton ceiling" as if it was remotely similar to the glass ceiling instead of a rape culture justification for what is, essentially, a desire to rape.

To clarify: I am not claiming trans people face no hostility whatsoever - just that they face less hostility than homosexuals. (And I suppose many attacks on transwomen are caused by homophobic rage of men who are ashamed of their accidental attraction to another male, not by specific "transphobia".)

It may not be as simple as transpeople having less hostility than lesbians. It might just be a young, confused girl, thinking, "this would be so much easier if I were a boy". Which it would.

True VV I was only thinking of the U.K. In my comment not the rest of the world.

My train of thought was that I think being gay has been accepted more readily in the last 20 years or maybe a bit less. IMO and like I said I'm not gay so fairly ignorant on it.

On trans people being discriminated against a lot more than others, if you've spent a significant amount of time as a man than transition it would prob feel like you experience it more because your trans. It's more likely to be the same amount as other targets of male discrimation

It might just be a young, confused girl, thinking, "this would be so much easier if I were a boy". Which it would.

Sure, that's also a contributing factor. Though as I wrote above, I do think (hope) girls at girls schools don't experience as much discrimination as girls in mixed schools do, so the "It would be easier if I was a boy" motivation wouldn't be as strong there.

@Mide7: I don't know, I sometimes get the impression that lesbians are not really accepted. I'm heterosexual and grew up in a progressive thinking family, so I don't know homophobic behaviour from my social circles, but from what I see on the internet, some people really seem to struggle with the idea that a woman may not want penis. (See the PiV thread here, where many have a knee-jerk reaction to the mere suggestion that women's sex lives don't have to involved penetration by penis)

On trans people being discriminated against a lot more than others, if you've spent a significant amount of time as a man than transition it would prob feel like you experience it more because your trans. It's more likely to be the same amount as other targets of male discrimation

Yes; I read some accounts by some rather enlightenened transwomen who were shocked at the amount of misogyny they got when they finally passed as women.

I would not be surprised at all if some or a lot of transwomen failed to realize that the increased amount of street harrassment they get is default male behaviour against women, not transphobia.

You can tell that trans people face less discrimination than gay people, easily.

How?

Well, huge numbers of MTF people who are attacked on the street are called slurs. The single most common reported slur in reports of anti-trans violence is not a slur for transgender people, but "faggot," an anti-gay slur. When they are attacked, it's not for being trans women, it's for being thought of as gay men.

Isn't there a backlash at the moment against 'effeminate' gay men? I can see why that might lead to pressure to consider transitioning, and I can see why that might be true for lesbians who are more masculine.

Thanks everyone for your comments and sharing your experiences. There's lots I'd love to respond to but busy now so will come back later. I'm really interested the views on girls schools. I actually wonder if the student would be happier in a mixed school as most of the girls in our school are very invested in the hair make-up nails eyebrows thing. My hunch is that the student might feel less isolated and out of place (and less like a boy???) if she had boys to mix with - I certainly found mixing with boys a relief at times when I was a teenager.

I'll come back when I can read and digest properly.

My hunch is that the student might feel less isolated and out of place (and less like a boy???) if she had boys to mix with - I certainly found mixing with boys a relief at times when I was a teenager.

That depends on whether the boys would accept her as girl - or whether they'd insist she must be a "really a boy". No idea how that is nowadays.

When I was a preteen, I wanted to play with boys, but they didn't want to play with girls. I just thought they were idiots - but when I was young, transitioning to boy was not an option.

It would probably be better for her to find other girls who are not interested in make-up and stuff, just like her.

I agree. I don't think I phrased that correctly. I'm probably projecting from myself as the thought of an all girls school horrified me as a teenager as I felt there would be no relief from the constant judgement on clothes and appearance, but I'm heterosexual and not butch so my issues are different. I've also never taught in a mixed school.

I do agree the girls probably feel more freedom to be sporty or mathsy at a girls' school. But they are also all forced to wear skirts and told endlessly to act 'ladylike' and teachers will say things to them like 'girls hold grudges, boys are much more straightforward, which drives me nuts. Anyway this is a slight detour from the main issue.

It all comes back to binary definitions of 'gender' and believing that certain people have to act a certain way because they are born with certain biology.

The way to get past that is not transition, it's challenging gender norms.

Single sex schools seem to lie in an uncomfortable place between defying gender norms and enforcement.

fwiw I'm still glad I went to a single-sex school instead of a mixed one. The other girls were cruel but the teenage boys I knew outside of school were much, much worse, and with the added threat of sexual violence. I can only imagine that's got worse since given the amount of porn that teenage boys watch these days.

Re "Stephonknee" - I would just like to know if there is anyone who calls themselves 'trans' that we are allowed to call mentally ill?

Surely any middle-aged adult who one day says he is 6 would be referred to a mental health professional, regardless of ideas of gender.

cote it's yet another elephant in the room isn't it - some of these people are clearly and obviously mentally ill but we're not allowed to point that out either.

On another note, has everyone who wants to write to the MoJ about the review Of transgender prisoners?

I really hope that people will write to say that the terms of reference of the review should explicitly mention female prisoners, in the same way the transgender community is referenced. I have written to [email protected] FAO Caroline Dineage, Justice Minister.

There's a thread about writing emails to Justice Minister here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_activism/2525998-Write-to-Caroline-Dineage-Justice-Minister-about-MoJ-Review

Thank you so much sodium for registering and sharing your experiences. I have read some of 4thWaveNow and it is excellent, it turns out the writer is one of the creators of the transgendertrend website which I also think is fantastic. I haven't looked at the other blogs yet but will do - once I've finished my reports . . .

I am putting together some information to send to the Chaplain. I will come back with any developments.

Re the mentally ill thing - I felt absolutely sick saying to the Chaplain that maybe some aspects of transgender are a mental illness - like I was saying the most offensive thing known to man. This despite the fact that I have had mental illnesses most of my life and I do not see it as a stigma.