Am I a self-defined woman?

[iisme]

A woman's group I am a member of is now stating that it is for 'self-defined women'. I appreciate that this is about inclusivity and I don't have a problem with trans-women joining the group. But I feel uncomfortable about the idea of being a self-defined woman. Firstly, I don't feel like I define myself as a woman. I am a woman and I'm fine with being a women (though pissed off with all the crap that comes with it) but it doesn't define who I am. I also don't feel, even if I am defined as a woman, that I am self-defined. I recognise my female biology and this is part of what makes me feel like a woman, and I experience life as a woman in a male-dominated world, and this is the other part of what makes me feel like a woman. But most of what I feel it is to be a woman is defined for me by society - something that is put on me because I am female bodied, and not something that I am choosing or defining myself.

Another woman's group I was looking at is for 'self-identified women'. This feels less problematic for me but I'm still not sure about it. I do identify as a woman in the ways I described above, but I again, I feel like most of the issues around being a woman are about external identification - because I am identified as a woman by others. My own internal identification - the core of who I feel who I am - is non-gendered.

Anyway, I'm trying to work through my thoughts and think about whether these phrases really are an issue and whether this is something I should address in the group. I'd be really glad to hear other opinions on this.

You can choose examples of feelings that are a close analogy.

What sex someone is forms a very specific, easy to define, physiological state.

I don't think feeling ill is analagous because illness covers a very broad range of other categories.

I think we understand biological sex very well.

There can only be said to be aspectrum of gender because people don't state what the characteristics of feeling male or female are!

When psychologists have tested gendered personality traits, they are not on a spectrum.

Sex is a number of discrete States. Intersex people are not half way between male and female. There are a number of different specific intersex conditions that are different to being male and female and to each other.

Also I don't understand when you say there is a gender spectrum from 'female to male to those who are neither.'

So at the two extremes of the spectrum are female and 'neither' with males sat in the middle. So females are more gendered than males. What does that mean?

what I'm saying is that with both sex and gender, we don't understand it well enough to be able to say "No, you are not female" when someone says that they are. If biology can make a mistake - like intersex, like being born with no legs - then conceivably it can make the mistake of giving you the "wrong" genitalia.

You are not given genitalia and genitalia are not right or wrong for your personality. We can quite easily say a person with a penis is male or intersex but not female and a person with a uterus is female or intersex but not male.

Spectrum makes no sense at all when it comes to talking about gender. If we wrote a long list of things that people ascribe gender (eg aggression, caring, baking, DIY etc etc) to and divide them into 'male' and 'female' characteristics most of us will tick a mix of characteristics from both sides. Different societies and different time periods will divide the lists differently too. It's all quite arbitrary really with no clear trend from super masculine through quite masculine, not very masculine, neutral, a bit feminine, strongly feminine, uber feminine etc etc.

So no spectrum, no fixed characteristics and a huge amount of overlap. A bit meaningless really. Personally I tick quite a few societally defined masculine trait boxes but to me that just says how limited the boxes are, how constraining the concept of gender is and nothing about me.

OP If I were you I'd be very inclined to leave the group. If the intention of the group is to have a place where women come together to talk about women's issues then both groups to me seem to be being slightly dishonest, and if you can't have a conversation with the other group members about why the new terminology makes you uncomfortable then what's the point of attending? I'd also wonder what a group for self-identified or self-defined women would be expected to focus on - if it's a group of people who choose to be feminine women then I would imagine conversation could be very different to a group of biological women. I'd also wonder what might come next - how would conversations about motherhood, birthing, menstruation, menopause be seen - OK, or exclusionary?

I got very annoyed with a survey that my university did which asked if I 'self-identified as a woman' when fundamentally what they meant was I male or female (there were later questions about sexual and gender identity) but they felt that wasn't the right way to ask any more. Like you I don't self-identify as anything other than myself. I know I am female. I don't particularly identify as feminine and I am gender critical, more interested in rejecting stereotypes and exploring why they exist than adopting them.

Realistically though, if you run a group for women you get hassle unless you open it to transwomen, which doesn't mean there are any actual transwomen who want to come - it's the allies who have nothing better to do activism-wise than to virtue signal by telling everyone what bigots you are. The group I am in recently changed its description - we have always been open to transwomen but were told off by random people who never come to meetings for not making it obvious enough on the Web page. In fact, maybe this is the group op means.
First rule of feminist activism is, you can't win

Spectrum makes no sense at all when it comes to talking about gender. If we wrote a long list of things that people ascribe gender (eg aggression, caring, baking, DIY etc etc) to and divide them into 'male' and 'female' characteristics most of us will tick a mix of characteristics from both sides

It sounds like you are talking about gender stereotypes not gender identity.

How do you define gender identity on a scale, then?

And if gender stereotypes are irrelevant why do trans people always use then as examples of how male or female they are?

How do you define gender identity on a scale, then

Probably more of a spectrum / continum, with lots of genders.

Where is the line between 'gender' and 'personality'?

How is it helpful to you to understand gender identity as a spectrum?

It doesn't seem to fit with how people describe their gender identities at all.

Why is it more informative, or a better understanding of gender identity to describe it as a spectrum rather than as a diverse range of experiences or identities?

Many non binary people say they don't relate to feeling male or female, and their gender identity is something other than that, not part male and part female. How does that fit on a spectrum?

There seem to be very few human experiences that are better explained, described or understood as either a spectrum or a binary.

Why is it more informative, or a better understanding of gender identity to describe it as a spectrum rather than as a diverse range of experiences or identities

That's a fair point. Gender identity seems to be really complex and different people have different experiences.
Some people seem to think of gender identity as a spectrum - some as a diverse range of identities.

Well maybe some people do. But why do you maintain it is a spectrum?

What are you trying to express by referring to a spectrum?

I don't know where on the spectrum you are putting different identities. Who is at each end?

The idea of a spectrum would convey some of the following...

The groups at each end are completely opposite to each other, presumably with no overlap as there are other groups between the two.

As you become less like one of the opposites, you automatically move along the spectrum and take on attributes of the other end of the spectrum.

The identities that are not at the ends must be partly one of the extremes and partly the other.

So all the different identities, bi gender, genderqueer, androgyne, neutrois, agender, gender fluid, male, female etc must all be lined up in some kind of order between whichever of those identities you consider to be the extremes of your spectrum.

Lets start with an easy one - what is at each end of this 'Gender Spectrum'?

The groups at each end are completely opposite to each other, presumably with no overlap as there are other groups between the two

Not sure why they have to be opposite. I'm happy thinking of biological sex as a spectrum without thinking of an ovary as opposite to a teste.

Well maybe some people do. But why do you maintain it is a spectrum

For me when I think of my gender identity it makes sense to me to think of it on a spectrum. I wouldn't say that's how everyone thinks though, just because that's my experience.

It could be that it is a spectrum with more than one axis? So you have four identities that are at ends? A lot of people think of political groups that way.

I understand that gender identities are empty categories that have no characteristics, so any attempt to question those characteristics can be met with denial.

But the word spectrum has a definition and a meaning. If you say something is on a spectrum then we can expect you to mean the attribute you are describing has the characteristics of a spectrum.

You may be happy thinking of an ovary and a teste as being on a spectrum, but you're not just thinking it, you are saying it on an Internet forum, so presumably you are trying to express something to other people? To be honest, I think if we now get on to bio sex, that is just going to derail ever finding out what you mean by gender identity is on a spectrum.

If you are thinking of your gender identity being on a spectrum, you are describing where you are in relationship to other people with other gender identities. You are making a statement about everyone, not just you. So what do you mean? It may just be your experience that gender identities are on a spectrum, but it is your experience of other people.

If I say, my experience is that the Swiss are more dishonest than the English, I'm still making a comment about other people, and a xenophobic one at that.

This is a good summation of my views.

it may just be your experience that gender identities are on a spectrum, but it is your experience of other people

Is this why my opinion bothers you? Because my views on gender identity will influence my experience of other people. And the way in which I interact with them?

Your opinion doesn't bother me.

I'm just trying to have a conversation with you and get you to explain your views.

I certainly hope your views on gender identity do influence how you interact with others, as we all have to do that.

But I didn't say that.

I am saying that if you are describing gender identities as being on a spectrum, you are making a statement about your position relative to other gender identities. So you are trying to express something about both yourself and other people.

So can you describe where the different gender identities are on the spectrum in question?

I am saying that if you are describing gender identities as being on a spectrum, you are making a statement about your position relative to other gender identities. So you are trying to express something about both yourself and other people

Yes I am saying how I experience my gender identity is to think of it as a spectrum/continuum. What I'm not saying is that that's how other people do (or should) view their gender identity.

If gender identity is a real thing, surely it should be possible for everyone to be in agreement about the spectrum? It's a bit of a cop out to say 'that's how I experience it but others may not experience it the same'
Either it's a real thing or it isn't

I never suggested you did say other people should think that way!

I am assuming that if you come on to an Internet forum, and make a statement, you are attempting to tell other people something and that you want other people to understand what it is you are saying.

I'm assuming you are not trying to be a mystical oracle that makes pronouncements and then people will go away and ponder on the mystery of your arcane words.

Are you trying to say that all the different gender identities sit on a spectrum, and if so, can you describe that spectrum?

Or are you now saying that you mean only your own gender identity group is on a spectrum. And if so, what gender identity group are you in and what attributes are at the two ends of that spectrum?

Could anyone who feels gender identity/gender is a real thing explain in real sense words what it is? Like if you were explaining it to an alien for example, what is female gender and what is male gender. I genuinely can't think what it could be without involving stereotypes, which it apparently doesn't. How can I know if I feel like a woman if I don't know what feeling like a woman feels?

almond what I am saying is that gender identity feels very real to me. I think it is very likely it feels real to a lot of people.
But I am perfectly willing to accept that some people don't really experience gender identity.

Or are you now saying that you mean only your own gender identity
I'm only comfortable talking about my own gender experience. I'm not about to sit here and tell you that you must experience gender in the same way as me.