Am I a self-defined woman?

[iisme]

A woman's group I am a member of is now stating that it is for 'self-defined women'. I appreciate that this is about inclusivity and I don't have a problem with trans-women joining the group. But I feel uncomfortable about the idea of being a self-defined woman. Firstly, I don't feel like I define myself as a woman. I am a woman and I'm fine with being a women (though pissed off with all the crap that comes with it) but it doesn't define who I am. I also don't feel, even if I am defined as a woman, that I am self-defined. I recognise my female biology and this is part of what makes me feel like a woman, and I experience life as a woman in a male-dominated world, and this is the other part of what makes me feel like a woman. But most of what I feel it is to be a woman is defined for me by society - something that is put on me because I am female bodied, and not something that I am choosing or defining myself.

Another woman's group I was looking at is for 'self-identified women'. This feels less problematic for me but I'm still not sure about it. I do identify as a woman in the ways I described above, but I again, I feel like most of the issues around being a woman are about external identification - because I am identified as a woman by others. My own internal identification - the core of who I feel who I am - is non-gendered.

Anyway, I'm trying to work through my thoughts and think about whether these phrases really are an issue and whether this is something I should address in the group. I'd be really glad to hear other opinions on this.

You don't have to have had every experience. The point is that there are forms of discrimination and experience that are commom amongst bio females only and as such women's human rights and definition are based on sex. Those human rights are universal to bio women. If you want to join a non existent social category, that shouldn't mean others should be considered under the same.

It's not just girls who are being told their bodies are dirty and shameful, it extends well into adulthood.

I remember girls at school talking about how awful it would be to leak during your period. Menstrual blood is often thought of as smelly and dirty, isn't it?

Sure, I've never actually been told the words "your vagina is smelly and dirty" but the message has still been there.

silly

If that's your opinion then that's your opinion. It seems to me that society in general is becoming increasing accepting of transwomen as women and transmen as men.

I don't think scented penis wash and penis wipes are a thing, but femfresh for women is available in all good supermarkets, so there is a message that women's bits are smelly and need to be wiped a lot with perfumed stuff

Is it the commercialisation of washes that's the huge issue? I guess I can understand that.

I heard an article on women's hour on this topic. The manufacturer of the feminine washes said the reason she created the wash was that the ph of the vulva was more acidic than the rest of the skin.
So the washes she made were better suited and should be healthier than normal soap. She did admit that water would be fine for hygiene but said a lot of women do want to use a wash on their crotch. If I'm honest I would prefer to wash my crotch with something more than water.

Men do need to ckean their penis if they have a foreskin but no products are involved.

Whenshewasbadshewashorrid, if you don't think there are any ways in which women are discriminated against which are to do with their biological sex, in what sense are you a feminist?

almond

For me (in 2015 and from my high privileged position as a white woman in the first world) it's about having children.

The pay gap grows at its biggest around 30-40 years of age. When a lot of women are either giving birth and / or have small families.

Part time jobs are crap as they are mostly for women (this seems to link in to child care in opinion).

I think women are at a disadvantage because they are the ones that get pregnant and breastfeed. My salary always matched (ish) dh's. But since we had kids (eldest nearly 5) his salary is now £5k more than mine. This could be a conincidence but I suspect the 2 years I took out on mat leave had an impact.

Violence is another massive issue.

The fact then men and women have a different approach to cleaning their crotch is of very little interest to me.

Yikes - just re read that post, it's really garbled, sorry. I was looking after my kids while writing

Having children has quite a lot to do with being biologically a woman.

Having children has quite a lot to do with being biologically a woman

Obviously it does but not all women give birth or are mothers. Some gay men adopt children.

Yes, I agree with you on all of that.

But I have considered before that it might then be that what I am is not a feminist, but someone who has a particular focus on the wellbeing of people with caring responsibilities whether they are women or not.

I'm not sure I'm following you almond I've no doubt you are a feminist.

Sorry, I might be not being very clear or going off at a tangent.

I would like to say thanks to Almond for putting in words, I struggled to say in this conversation.

No problem almond thanks for taking the time to talk on this. I don't think either of us has changed our mind about transwomen but I've found this interesting.
All the best.

almondpudding wrote - "How would this work for any other biological state? ... We're not sure if someone is 13 or 22. Let's make age self defined!"

This morning I heard a transactivist speaking on BBC radio in support of Tara Hudson being moved to a women's prison, who said: "She has identified as a woman since the age of six".

Since "identify as a woman" seems to be transactivist-speak for "is a woman", it wouldn't surprise me if this transactivist's comment is taken as meaning "She has been a woman since the age of six", with the media and general population happy to accept its implications. So "woman" comes to mean adult females, adult trans males and juvenile trans males.

Not read the whole thread, so sorry if this has been brought up already, but I do believe I read the term "woman identified woman" as one that is meant to clarify that a woman does not identify with the patriarchy.
Though I suppose a feminist group that wants to exclude women who identify with (not as) males, would word that in a clearer way.

On having children ... the fact that you COULD have children will always affect your life as a woman, while gay men will not be discriminated against because they could, in theory, adopt a child.

Not to mention the various health risks or hormonal contraception.

I personally don't like the term cis-genger, this is a modern mare up term, I was born female and grew up as a girl and now a woman, I don't need another label. Labels cause division, the more labels there are the more division there will be, stop with all these labels. Let's just have one label - Human, after all were all human

Zombie.

The irony is that I felt very accepting of transgender people for most of my life and took them at their word that "they were born with the wrong body". Until this trans insanity of recent years began. Then I took a long hard look at this concept of the wrong body - and I just don't buy it anymore.

Imagine a world in which no oppression of human females and no concept of gender exists. All humans wear brown jumpsuits, wear their hair at the same length, groom their body hair in the same way. The males never abuse their biological strength, and the females are fully supported and respected in the reproductive burden their biology determines.

Now tell me: would trans people exist in this scenario? I have a hard time imagining that they would. I personally find having a female body a prison even in one of the most female-friendly places on earth. If I woke up in a male one tomorrow - I would jump for joy because of the sheer ease and privilege of having one. Most of my personality traits would be simpler and safer to express in a male body, and even my neurological deficiencies would be tonnes less harmful to live with.

Am I trans? Not even remotely. I'm just a critically thinking person who was born in a female body and the oppressive reality that goes with it. I would never consciously choose to be a woman and I don't know why anyone would in the world that we live in. So no - I don't 'identify' with the feminine gender despite my largely 'girly' appearance (colourful clothes, make-up). I would happily ditch them tomorrow if I received male privilege in return.

I don't think scented penis wash and penis wipes are a thing, but femfresh for women is available in all good supermarkets, so there is a message that women's bits are smelly and need to be wiped a lot with perfumed stuff

It is completely the opposite of what is scientifically known.
With horses, I've read, if you have a male castrated horse, it can get penis cancer because of the dirt that accumulates (stallions apparently ditch much of the dirt when having erections and mounting mares ...)
Whereas mares don't require any specific hygiene.

Animal medicine does not always translate well to human medicine, but if lots of mammals seem to function completely differently than you think humans do, it's reason to think about it again.

Yes, the vagina is acidic, and should stay so, but many of those washes marketed as especially for vaginas are not acidic, just scented. (And as has been mentioned clear water would be enough to wash your vulva. And the vagina shouldn't be douched at all, unless you have lots of unprotected PIV sex and need to add some acid to maintain a healthy balance.)

So no - I don't 'identify' with the feminine gender despite my largely 'girly' appearance (colourful clothes, make-up). I would happily ditch them tomorrow if I received male privilege in return.

Me too ... but it doesn't work like that, does it? The only (potential) way to male privilege in this brave new world is to have your breasts chopped off and take testosterone. And even that works only if you looked a bit masculine to begin with and are tall enough. And of course, you still can't be topless, because nowadays, men will be very well able to tell what your scars mean and will still target you for discrimination and rape.

The only thing you reliably get is liberal feminists catering to your illusions and calling you male pronouns. Which is not worth it.