Am I a self-defined woman?

[iisme]

A woman's group I am a member of is now stating that it is for 'self-defined women'. I appreciate that this is about inclusivity and I don't have a problem with trans-women joining the group. But I feel uncomfortable about the idea of being a self-defined woman. Firstly, I don't feel like I define myself as a woman. I am a woman and I'm fine with being a women (though pissed off with all the crap that comes with it) but it doesn't define who I am. I also don't feel, even if I am defined as a woman, that I am self-defined. I recognise my female biology and this is part of what makes me feel like a woman, and I experience life as a woman in a male-dominated world, and this is the other part of what makes me feel like a woman. But most of what I feel it is to be a woman is defined for me by society - something that is put on me because I am female bodied, and not something that I am choosing or defining myself.

Another woman's group I was looking at is for 'self-identified women'. This feels less problematic for me but I'm still not sure about it. I do identify as a woman in the ways I described above, but I again, I feel like most of the issues around being a woman are about external identification - because I am identified as a woman by others. My own internal identification - the core of who I feel who I am - is non-gendered.

Anyway, I'm trying to work through my thoughts and think about whether these phrases really are an issue and whether this is something I should address in the group. I'd be really glad to hear other opinions on this.

almond
This is the main but I don't really understand about your position (possibly this isn't your position and I've misinterpreted your posts).

I genuinely don't understand why it's ok for an intersex woman to be accepted as a woman but not a transwoman.

But - is meant to say thing (sorry should check before posting)

And some people are male and claim that they are female because that's how they feel. How does that make any sense? It's not true is it? Demonstrably not true

WSWBSWH
the family member I mentioned has shared most of my female experiences. The ones she has not relate to pregnancy. She is completely female. She has no aspect of male biology, no male experience or socialisation. She is female.
Someone who is biologically male and has been raised as such shares none of my female experiences. They are not like me. My family member is like me.

I didn't ask whether you thought biology was important or not. I asked why you could understand intersex as a definition based solely on our understanding of biological sex but could not understand the definition of a female as based on our understanding of biological sex.

The reason why intersex people are often included and treated as women in a wide range of social situations is because both women and intersex people are oppressed based on their biological sex and have many similar social experiences due to the way society deals with people in those categories based on their biological sex characteristics. Politically and socially they have a great deal in common based on sex based oppression.

Trans women do not have this in common with either intersex or biological females.

Many people are claiming to have such a thing as a gender identity. The people who self define as cis women and trans women feel that they have something in common. That's your choice to go and be that together.

But this has nothing to do with females in general, who have a set of rights based on their sex and a history based on their sex. I don't want to be separated from agender and non binary females when they feel they have common ground with other females.

And some people are male and claim that they are female because that's how they feel. How does that make any sense? It's not true is it? Demonstrably not true

Well maybe it doesn't make sense to you but - society seems to be quite accepting now of transwomen and transmen.

You don't really hear - "that person isn't a real woman" If she has been living for years as a woman and taking hormones most people seem happy to view that person as a woman.

almond

So you are happy to include intersex women as women but not transwomen - because the former experience oppression but the transwomen hasn't.

Well maybe that's true but given the very high sucide rate for transwomen they don't sound like they are benefiting all that much.

No, most people are being courteous. They use the appropriate pronouns.

Most people are not mean spirited. They would not wish to deny any trans person safety, the right to work, housing, to social inclusion.

Most people are polite.

That doesn't mean they view trans women as women.

What does it even mean to 'view' someone as a woman?

No, I never said that.

Both intersex people and biological females are oppressed based on the way society treats people with that biology.

Trans people are discriminated against and oppressed for other reasons.

Both intersex people and biological females are oppressed based on the way society treats people with that biology. Trans people are discriminated against and oppressed for other reasons

What about a person who knew they were trans very early. You do get trans kids, if they transition very early they get treated as a girl (and later a woman) for the vast majority of their life.

But they are not discriminated against based on their biology or through their female biology, because they don't have any female biology.

And in any documentary I have seen on trans kids, trans girls are treated nothing like girls.

But they are not discriminated against based on their biology or through their female biology, because they don't have any female biology

But if they are living as girls how does your average person know what their biology is?

trans girls are treated nothing like girls

I'm not really sure what you mean here. How are they treated?

The most significant people in a child's life, who have most influence on them, know what their biological sex is.

External societal messages from those who don't know the child frequently include messages based in biology. A trans girl won't grow up being given that societal message that her vagina is smelly and dirty because she doesn't have one. A trans girl won't worry about people being appalled if she has breasts at age nine because she is at no risk of unmanaged female puberty. A trans girl won't worry that her uterus is something other people want for their own purposes and have a right to make statements about because she doesn't have one.

Any trans documentary I have seen has shown trans kids being given a huge amount of attention, choice and precision in what they want that I have never seen given to the average girl. Girls' opinions on their gender experiences are not validated and explored in the way that those of trans kids are. Nobody whatsoever at school cares my DD is unhappy about girls' gender roles. Unless she was to declare herself trans of course. A major part of society's treatment of females is that nobody cares what being female means to you. You should just shut up and put up with what you are told society wants from you.

That is the exact opposite of how trans girls are treated. That's why Jazz Jennings can start making plans in childhood about how she's going to use her sister's uterus to become a mother. Because she isn't part of the group whose bodily autonomy is limited. She is part of the group (men) that feels entitled to access women's bodies for their own purposes.

And all of this is somewhat irrelevant anyway.

There are loads of situations, as a courtesy, that trans women get included with women.

There are lots of situations in my life where boys, gay men or elderly men have been included as a courtesy with women.

We don't live in a binary society where people are always split into groups by sex.

But including trans women in certain situations with women is not a reason to replace women, a category based on biological sex with women as a self defined gender identity. Because self defined female gender category is socially a non existent category. It has no shared social meaning, no characteristics. It is fundamentally dangerous to put people into a non existent category; it divorces that group from their own history and social context.

There is no way to understand, legislate and defend the rights of a group of people who have been put into a category with no shared social meaning.

It is for that very reason that intersex people advocate against being considered or raised as a third gender. The category third gender does not really exist, and it is unsafe to put people into categories that have no real existence in society.

The most significant people in a child's life, who have most influence on them, know what their biological sex is
Yes but the society they grow up in also has a massive influence on her. It would be nice to think I had that level of control over my kids but I'm well aware lots of other people influence them.

A trans girl won't grow up being given that societal message that her vagina is smelly and dirty because she doesn't have one. A trans girl won't worry about people being appalled if she has breasts at age nine because she is at no risk of unmanaged female puberty. A trans girl won't worry that her uterus is something other people want for their own purposes and have a right to make statements about because she doesn't have one

Well from that description I had a similar upbringing to a transgirl. The vagina isn't the only think that can smell. It's not like smelly armpits are welcomed by society. I was just taught to keep clean. And I never grew up feeling that someone else had reproductive rights to my uterus.

We don't live in a binary society where people are always split into groups by sex

Well I agree with you there.

I think we should probably end it here as we are going to start going round in circles soon.

You said that you considered biology to be very important. If you do not agree with the examples that I have given then there must be other elements of biology that you think are important.

Equating a vagina to an armpit is an example of you having damaging internalised messages about women's bodies. We do need to keep armpits clean, by cleaning them! If we don't they get dirty. Vaginas do not have to be cleaned. I have never, ever cleaned my vagina. I was not taught to clean my vagina because my parents are not sexist imbeciles who teach girls to do damaging things to their own bodies.

If you do not agree with the examples that I have given then there must be other elements of biology that you think are important

I think it's probably the way in which you talk about the female body I'm not keen on. It's all so negative.
This smells.
You can have babies but someone will try and use that ability to their own ends.

I wasn't raised to view my body in a negative way.

• actually you are totally right about not cleaning your vagina. I did that stupid thing of calling your vulva a vagina, very foolish. I don't douche either - it's not good for you. But I do wash my crotch.

I am talking about negative messages females are given about their bodies because I said that females were discriminated against through their biology.

You then raised a point about trans girls who transitioned early having the same experiences.

How am I supposed to give examples of discrimination around biological sex without those things being negative?!

Here is your post:

'Both intersex people and biological females are oppressed based on the way society treats people with that biology. Trans people are discriminated against and oppressed for other reasons

What about a person who knew they were trans very early. You do get trans kids, if they transition very early they get treated as a girl (and later a woman) for the vast majority of their life.'

Followed by this:

But they are not discriminated against based on their biology or through their female biology, because they don't have any female biology

But if they are living as girls how does your average person know what their biology is?

trans girls are treated nothing like girls

I'm not really sure what you mean here. How are they treated?'

How am I supposed to illustrate discrimination against female bodies without pointing out negative examples? That is just truly bizarre.

Is this a new rule for feminists? We shouldn't mention bad things done to females? Or said about females?

But in most countries someone else does have reproductive rights to a woman's uterus. In the UK two doctors have to sign to say there's a medical reason for an abortion. Even if in actual fact most doctors are decent and more than happy to accept "this woman does not want, for whatever reason, to continue the pregnancy" as sufficient reason to tick the box does not alter the fact that in the UK as a matter of law we do not have abortion on demand. And in the US, although Roe vs Wade is still in place, restrictions on hospital admitting privileges etc mean de facto abortion may be impossible to obtain even if it's legal.And tthat's before we even get to countries like Nicaragua where doctors are so terrified of being prosecuted for procuring abortions that women are dying from untreatedeectopic pregnancies.

I'm glad you feel no-one has ever had the right to tell you what to do with your uterus, but I'm afraid I don't share your confidence in the existence of a benevolent state that lets women get on with making their own reproductive choices.

How am I supposed to illustrate discrimination against female bodies without pointing out negative examples? That is just truly bizarre

That is a fair point. I guess I was just pointing out that I didn't experience these negative examples.

Of course you can talk about the negatives of growing up with a female body but not every women has the same experience. I'm sure some girls are raised to believe their body is dirty and shameful but that wasn't my experience and it wasn't the experience of many of my friends.
So it's not just trans girls that aren't subjected to messages about smelly vaginas.

lurico

I'm glad you feel no-one has ever had the right to tell you what to do with your uterus, but I'm afraid I don't share your confidence in the existence of a benevolent state that lets women get on with making their own reproductive choices

My point wasn't that women don't experience this (others claiming ownership of a women's reproduction).
It was simply that it isn't a universal experience for all girls.

There is no universal female experience other than the experience of living with a biologically female body. That's why trying to create any other definition of female other than biologically female quickly turns into gender stereotyping nonsense.