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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Am I a self-defined woman?

248 replies

iisme · 25/10/2015 09:54

A woman's group I am a member of is now stating that it is for 'self-defined women'. I appreciate that this is about inclusivity and I don't have a problem with trans-women joining the group. But I feel uncomfortable about the idea of being a self-defined woman. Firstly, I don't feel like I define myself as a woman. I am a woman and I'm fine with being a women (though pissed off with all the crap that comes with it) but it doesn't define who I am. I also don't feel, even if I am defined as a woman, that I am self-defined. I recognise my female biology and this is part of what makes me feel like a woman, and I experience life as a woman in a male-dominated world, and this is the other part of what makes me feel like a woman. But most of what I feel it is to be a woman is defined for me by society - something that is put on me because I am female bodied, and not something that I am choosing or defining myself.

Another woman's group I was looking at is for 'self-identified women'. This feels less problematic for me but I'm still not sure about it. I do identify as a woman in the ways I described above, but I again, I feel like most of the issues around being a woman are about external identification - because I am identified as a woman by others. My own internal identification - the core of who I feel who I am - is non-gendered.

Anyway, I'm trying to work through my thoughts and think about whether these phrases really are an issue and whether this is something I should address in the group. I'd be really glad to hear other opinions on this.

OP posts:
whatdoIget · 25/10/2015 13:41

I wouldn't want to go to a women's group that had people who weren't born as women in it. There wouldn't be any point to such a group calling itself a women's group imo.

QueenPotato · 25/10/2015 13:47

But whatdoiget, there is being physically born as a woman, and feeling that you are a woman. Transgender women don't say "I've decided I'd like to become a women", they say "I am a woman, and have always been, I just have the wrong body". So they would feel they were born as a woman.

I kind of agree with the PP who said they'd want them to be post op and transition. I feel uncomfortable about the idea of basically, a penis being there. But I can't be sure exactly why that is, as if the person felt they were a woman, the penis should be irrelevant. I realise I may not be being very fair but I'm still trying to work out what I think about a lot of this.

grimbletart · 25/10/2015 13:49

The proliferation of these threads basically rotating around what is a woman are getting me more and more fed up.

The ridiculous terms in these various threads such as "cis", self-defining, self identifying, women with "female penises" etc. are surreal.

What is happening is that a minute sub group of a bigger but still small sub group i.e. MTFs, are attempting to set an agenda which is nothing to do with feminism by redefining what the term "woman" means.

Why are we, as feminists, even getting sucked into this nonsense?

It is perfectly possible to empathise with MTFs and the many difficulties they face, to use their preferred pronouns and welcome them as fellow "oppressed" if you like that term (I personally don't).

But when they act like a tail wagging the dog and trying to bring a left-over sense of male entitlement into female spaces they can fuck right off.

They don't get to redefine what a woman is just because they happen to want to be one, or feel like one (whatever it is a woman feels like).

Ubik1 · 25/10/2015 13:50

I'm joining a group for self defined gay men.

QueenPotato · 25/10/2015 13:54

grimble, I agree they should not be the tail wagging the dog, exactly. OTOH if someone has always felt like a woman I'm kind of inclined to think they know themselves best. That doesn't mean they automatically get rights to female spaces. However, if you're a post op trans woman then you are no longer, in any way, a man either. Then you are excluded from being in either group.

It's a very difficult situation and I think all the debates around it are important.

SacredHeart · 25/10/2015 13:58

I am asking again as many have a definite view of transwomen not being welcome. Are you saying a transman is welcome and still a woman in your eyes?

whatdoIget · 25/10/2015 14:00

But then if someone is saying they "feel like a woman" we just come round again to the question of how do you know? How do I know I feel like a woman? What is it to feel like a woman?
There was a long thread about feeling like a woman where hundreds of women said they have no idea what feeling like a woman is. Being a woman is not a feeling it's a fact. I'm really sorry if anyone is offended or upset by this, but is born women and trans women cannot satisfactorily explain this elusive feeling, then I'm afraid I don't think it actually exists.

almondpudding · 25/10/2015 14:00

I'm more concerned about all the women (version 1.0 meaning) who are being excluded by all this nonsense than whether a few trans women turn up or not.

almondpudding · 25/10/2015 14:06

What is a trans* man?

Do you mean a trans man?

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 25/10/2015 14:06

sacred that's a good point. Surely if transwomen aren't welcome, then transmen are.

Postino · 25/10/2015 14:10

Just speaking for myself here, yes I'd be happy for a trans man to be at a woman's group. Because to me (and I have no desire to offend anyone by saying this) they would be a woman, albeit one who feels like a man.

almondpudding · 25/10/2015 14:10

Um, no.

Presumably you could put any condition on who is and is not a woman for the purposes of a woman's group?

Some people might include trans men and others might not.

almondpudding · 25/10/2015 14:11

Sorry, that was to Whenshewas.

whatdoIget · 25/10/2015 14:11

I would imagine trans men wouldn't want to go to a women's group anyway, or what would be the point of being trans?

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 25/10/2015 14:12

i think it would have to depend on the group I think they looked, dressed, sounded like a man for some that might feel a threat, and if that is the case why would they want to be there

I am not sure why a trans man would want to come to a group for women though if they identify themselves as a man

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 25/10/2015 14:28

I am not sure why a trans man would want to come to a group for women though if they identify themselves as a man

I agree they probably wouldn't want to come. I guess it's more of an issue when it comes to changing rooms and toliets in terms of a day to day issue.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 25/10/2015 15:53

I would be quite tempted to force the organisers to clarify what they mean a little bit more by contacting them and saying 'I don't define myself as a woman, society does, can I still come?'

FloraFox · 25/10/2015 18:02

OTOH if someone has always felt like a woman I'm kind of inclined to think they know themselves best.

They might know what they feel but they don't know whether that feeling approximates the feeling of actually being a woman.

iisme · 25/10/2015 18:18

Countess, my guess would be that I'd get a slightly bemused 'of course you are welcome' and the issue won't be addressed at all. I'm not sure I have the nerve to force a big group-wide discussion about what the statement says about women - I think I could end up ostracised and vilified.

OP posts:
FloraFox · 25/10/2015 18:21

iisme I suspect that if you expressed the views you have expressed her you would be vilified and the excluded from the group.

QueenPotato · 25/10/2015 18:34

OTOH if someone has always felt like a woman I'm kind of inclined to think they know themselves best.

They might know what they feel but they don't know whether that feeling approximates the feeling of actually being a woman.

But by that argument none of us know if how we feel is how other women feel, or whose feelings are the feelings of a "real" woman. After all some people biologically born women feel that they are men.

almondpudding · 25/10/2015 18:41

Well exactly.

It is almost as if being a woman is a matter of biology and not a feeling inside anyone's head!

iisme · 25/10/2015 18:50

I probably would be, Flora and I makes me feel so frustrated! I don't wish any harm on transpeople, am appalled by the prejudice they face, would fight for their rights and would treat them with respect (e.g., using preferred name and pronoun). But I want a rational discussion about what it means t think that women are self-defined, where that leaves women who don't self define in this way and what the impact of this understanding of gender might be on gender equality. And for that I would most likely, as you say, be ostracised and vilified. sigh

OP posts:
SoftDriftedSnow · 25/10/2015 18:51

There's not a load of boy souls and girl souls floating around ready to leap in to an egg meets sperm situation.

OP, you might get a load of woman saying "thank heavens someone said something". I'm not so sure anymore. This isn't about trans activists now. This is about people becoming so open minded that their brains have fallen out. (and as Dittany used to say, they will need old school feminists to put them back in.)

FloraFox · 25/10/2015 19:41

But by that argument none of us know if how we feel is how other women feel, or whose feelings are the feelings of a "real" woman.

Being a woman is a biological fact regardless of how one feels. What have feelings got to do with it?