Am I a self-defined woman?

[iisme]

A woman's group I am a member of is now stating that it is for 'self-defined women'. I appreciate that this is about inclusivity and I don't have a problem with trans-women joining the group. But I feel uncomfortable about the idea of being a self-defined woman. Firstly, I don't feel like I define myself as a woman. I am a woman and I'm fine with being a women (though pissed off with all the crap that comes with it) but it doesn't define who I am. I also don't feel, even if I am defined as a woman, that I am self-defined. I recognise my female biology and this is part of what makes me feel like a woman, and I experience life as a woman in a male-dominated world, and this is the other part of what makes me feel like a woman. But most of what I feel it is to be a woman is defined for me by society - something that is put on me because I am female bodied, and not something that I am choosing or defining myself.

Another woman's group I was looking at is for 'self-identified women'. This feels less problematic for me but I'm still not sure about it. I do identify as a woman in the ways I described above, but I again, I feel like most of the issues around being a woman are about external identification - because I am identified as a woman by others. My own internal identification - the core of who I feel who I am - is non-gendered.

Anyway, I'm trying to work through my thoughts and think about whether these phrases really are an issue and whether this is something I should address in the group. I'd be really glad to hear other opinions on this.

What have feelings got to do with it

If you are transexual, a lot.

I suppose for me the thing that jars about "self-defined" is that for me the reason I have always felt that I needed feminism was because it was other people who seemed to have the power to define how my existence was to be circumscribed because I was a woman. Either being a woman is simply a biological fact (unproblematic as far as I'm concerned) or, where it's defined I personally have always had the experience that it's someone else doing the defining (girls can't play cricket, girls should do biology, not physics, girls should wear skirts...) to my disadvantage.

Thanks, Lurcio, that's pretty much exactly how I feel about it but more elegantly expressed!

What have feelings got to do with it

If you are transexual, a lot.

But what has that got to do with being a woman?

I am struggling with all this too.
For me the "coming out" of the food blogger Jack who was previously "A girl called jack" as non-gendered or whatever it was that she?he?they? Said. The blog post gist was a rejection of limiting and stereotypical definitions of female.
Well I reject those definitions and stereotypes too! But id rather challenge the stereotypes than reject the label female and invent myself a new non-gender. Why can't the definition of female include gay women and those who reject traditional femininity? My definition does.

Being a woman is a biological fact regardless of how one feels. What have feelings got to do with it?

Spot on.

But what has that got to do with being a woman

If you are a transexual woman a lot.

Then we have two groups with nothing particularly in common.

Women, who are women based on their biology.

Transgender women, who feel like women, whatever that means.

But there's also transgender men, who are born women biologically, but feel like men and may do what it takes to become a man physically as far as possible.

The fact they they exist means it doesn't make sense to say "Women, who are women based on their biology" because transgender men are women based on their biology, but men based on their own definition.

And you can't say that "how a woman feels" is how a person feels who is biologically female. Because some of them don't consider themselves women.

I'm not actually on either side of the fence on this. I'm not sure about what I think about many things. But I do think gender isn't as simple as you are born male or female biologically and that's that.

But I do think gender isn't as simple as you are born male or female biologically and that's that

Agree

The fact they they exist means it doesn't make sense to say "Women, who are women based on their biology" because transgender men are women based on their biology, but men based on their own definition.

They are women regardless of their feelings. Being a woman is a biological reality, not a matter of feelings.

Gender has several definitions so I'm not sure which one you are using. Sex, however, is as simple as being female or male though.

No it isn't because some people are intersex. I think the view that everyone must be firmly male or female is incorrect, not only emotionally but also biologically.

But I do think gender isn't as simple as you are born male or female biologically and that's that.

No, that's sex. Depending on your viewpoint, gender is either a system of oppression that forces people into sex-based trait and behaviour boxes to the benefit (but also sometimes detriment) of those higher up the system's hierarchy by means of extracting labour from them, or it's a method of self-expression based on a spectrum with masculine/feminine (or male/female in some cases) at either end and all manner of labels in the middle.

The former allows for the analysis of sex-based classes and their place in society. The latter allows individuals to express themselves in opposition to a supposed binary (that doesn't even exist, according to its proponents).

Honestly, the way all this stuff is going, I think all feminists should just 'identify' as agender/pangender/bigender/bolleauxgender and have done with it.

Queen, that is because you are using one word, woman (or man) to mean two different things.

When I say I am a woman I mean that I am an adult female human

I am a woman in the same sense that a doe is an adult female deer.

When I say I am a woman I mean that I was born with a clitoris, vagina, uterus and with my gametes already inside me.

A trans man says he feels like a man. He is talking about a feeling not biology.

If you are finding it hard to make sense of the word woman meaning two totally different things, try using two other words, and comparing the meanings.

So I am Pokemon. A Pokemon is an adult human who was born with a clitoris, vagina, uterus and their gametes already inside them.

Some other people are duvets. A duvet is a person who feels like a duvet.

The two groups have nothing in common.

No it isn't because some people are intersex. I think the view that everyone must be firmly male or female is incorrect, not only emotionally but also biologically.

Intersection is irrelevant to trans. There is no such thing as "emotionally" male or female therefore the existence of biologically intersex people does not indicate there can be emotionally intersex people.

The existence of intersex does not mean humans are not sexually dimorphic any more than someone being born with no legs does not change that humans are bipedal.

"He is talking about a feeling not biology"

What I am talking about it that they – a feeling and biology - are not that clearly separable. What makes a trans person feel very strongly that they are not the gender that they are biologically born? I'm not a dualist, so I'd argue that ultimately that feeling is biological, and it comes from somewhere and exists for a reason.

I have no idea how it feels to be born with a male body and feel desperately strongly that you are female. But I also have no idea if what I feel, as a biological woman who feels like a woman, is more valid than that or is somehow typical. We have no way of knowing.

I do understand the distinction between gender and sex as defined. But I still don't think it's that simple. There is a huge interplay of biological, emotional and social factors and the fact is that all of them are on a spectrum, not binary.

Or maybe this is simpler.

Some old people say they feel like a teenager.

Some people between the ages of 13 and 19 say they feel like they're elderly - born to be old.

Do you find it difficult to make sense of who is a teenager?

You're misunderstanding that I do understand this distinction.

Honestly, the way all this stuff is going, I think all feminists should just 'identify' as agender/pangender/bigender/bolleauxgender and have done with it

I consider myself to be a feminist but I have no issue with the idea of transwomen existing, or with gender identity.

Feeling and human morphology and physiology are separable.

Feeling five foot two is not the same as being five foot two.

Feeling overweight is not the same as being overweight. We don't put anorexics in the same group as overweight people.

Feeling you have impaired hearing is not the same thing as having impaired hearing.

It isn't a fact that they are all on a spectrum either! Where is the evidence for that?

queen does make a good point about intersex. We already call women who do not fully meet the physical criteria to be women (which almond referred to regarding clitoris and womb etc) - as women.

On the other hand, feeling ill is the same as being ill. Feeling stressed changes what happens in your body. Feeling you have been given a medicine can improve your symptoms when it was a placebo. Feelings about who you are and your identity, add up to your identity.

You can just choose your examples when it comes to "feelings", can't you.

I do agree you can feel female while not having female genitalia and they are not the same thing. One is measurable and visible and one isn't.

However, what I'm saying is that with both sex and gender, we don't understand it well enough to be able to say "No, you are not female" when someone says that they are. If biology can make a mistake - like intersex, like being born with no legs - then conceivably it can make the mistake of giving you the "wrong" genitalia.

Again, I'm not sure, and I'm not arguing a fixed case. But I am uncomfortable with this very black and white view. And I am a feminist.

There is a spectrum of gender from female to male to those who feel neither.
There is a spectrum of societal expectations of sex and gender.
There is a spectrum of physical manifestations of sex, from "typically" male or female to intersex and those who have varying aspects of both, in terms of hormones and phenotype.

Prader scales might be of interest.