Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Germaine Greer

531 replies

IamTheWhoreofBabylon · 23/10/2015 22:57

i never post here but I'm watching Germaine Greer on newsnight
Crazy, the woman is not allowed to discuss feminist issues without being forced to discuss transgender issues
Disclaimer- I really like GG
Am I reading this correctly? Why does she have to fight for a different groups issues

OP posts:
IamTheWhoreofBabylon · 26/10/2015 16:27

I couldn't find the counter petition at all when searching
The only way I got to it was a link on here

OP posts:
Raia · 26/10/2015 16:32

Hasn't Cardiff University announced already that they will not be withdrawing the invitation for GG to speak? GG has stated that she isn't going to attend, and I don't blame her. So regardless of petitions, the effect has still been to stymie the event. The whole thing is just so exasperating. I can't even bear to look at what the idiots are saying on Twitter.

iisme · 26/10/2015 16:36

If the reporting was a bit more balanced, it would tell a totally different story - i.e., this is a complex issue on which people are really divided and which needs to be discussed rather than hateful old woman makes embarrasingly out-of-date statements.

ChunkyPickle · 26/10/2015 17:10

I'm fed up of the number of articles on this that are positively gleeful about GG getting her 'comeuppance'.

abbieanders · 26/10/2015 18:05

It's so disappointing that the number of people prepared to write about this making absolutely no effort to understand why some women are saying what we say. I read Zoe Williams in the guardian today, no effort to engage whatsoever. The explanation that women are saying these things simply to be cruel and spiteful for unfathomable motives is so readily accepted by everyone, it's most dismaying.

NoodleEatingPoodle · 26/10/2015 18:20

For a person with male biology to say that he thinks, feels, and wishes to live as a woman, is for him to say that women must (or should) think, feel, and live in a particularly defined way, which is fundamentally different to how men (must, or should) think, feel and live.

How can it be difficult to see why feminists would be unable / unwilling to work from this premise?

The tacking on of the 'T' to the LGB rights movement is, I think, where the well-meaning eagerness to embrace trangenderism comes from, as if it is a liberation movement like the LGB and feminist movements are, as opposed to a dangerous reinforcement of the prison that is gender.

NoodleEatingPoodle · 26/10/2015 18:46

I would like for a trans activist to answer the question: "When you say that you wish to live as a woman, what exactly is it about the way you wish to live, that can't be included in the life of a man?"

Or is it actually a matter of wanting to be perceived as a woman, as opposed to wanting to "live as" one?

The only meaning that "living as a woman" would have in a feminist society would be in relation to female biology, I think. I suppose I am "living as a woman" when I'm throwing a dark jacket down on my seat in the board room before a long meeting, in case my tampon springs a leak. I felt like I was living as a woman when I was pregnant and feeling the movement inside and elated / fearful at the thought of the birth. I was living as a woman when I breastfed my baby, and then when the milk stopped flowing and I struggled with the feelings of disappointment around that. I am living as a woman when I get my smear reminder and my mammogram reminder and the low-level anxiety buzzes around the back of my mind until both are done and clear.

But in the absence of female biology (not a cosmetic approximation of female anatomy), what meaning can "living as a woman" have, that isn't antithetical to feminism?

There's the social side, of course, of being perceived as a woman. Wolf whistles or insults / comments on physical appearance. The threat of sexual violence. The assumptions about what your interests will be, the assumed limits on your aptitudes and intelligence, the continuous subtle and overt messages that you are mainly ornamental in purpose, and that if you're getting that role wrong or not working at it or too old to fulfill it satisfactorily, you are basically a waste of oxygen and best ignored or ridiculed.

I think that "living as a woman" or "living as a man" is meaningless outslde of biology. Being perceived as a woman or as a man certainly means something, but the differences in assumptions, cultural expectations and life chances based on perceived gender are exactly what feminism exists to combat.

NoodleEatingPoodle · 26/10/2015 18:47

Sorry for the long rants about things that most everyone here understands anyway. Just needed to get it off my chest. Urrrrgghhhhhh.

ChunkyPickle · 26/10/2015 18:55

When you put it like that Noodle the phrase 'living as a woman' from a transwoman actually starts to sound offensive to me - because a transwoman won't have to deal with those biological things. GG put it very well with her 'hairy, smelly vagina' comment.

squidzin · 26/10/2015 19:02

Don't apologise noodle, your post is perfect. Also Blackbirdsinapie.

Thank you both. Trans issues come up so frequently with attacks on feminism, and it bugs the hell out of me. Never know how to explain why.

jorahmormont · 26/10/2015 19:02

I also don't get this 'living as a woman/man' concept.

I was discussing it with OH, and he put a question to me earlier, about whether I feel differently about mtf or ftm. We have a very good friend who is ftm.

I explained that I have no issues calling people by the pronoun they have requested, as I hope they'd call me "they, them" if I do decide that I am more comfortable with that, and I have no issue with people living the way they want to - but in my mind, whether we are a man or a woman is defined purely by the genitals we have and the DNA we are born with, as that is what influences whether we have that male privilege or not growing up - and so our friend feels more comfortable dressing in men's clothes, taking hormones and being referred to as 'he', but he will never be a man, with the male privilege that biological men enjoy. Similarly, a MTF can dress in the clothes, have surgery and be referred to as 'she', but she will never be a woman, with those lived experiences of what biological women face. I will never go against their wishes in what they wish to be known as, nor will I tell them "you're not a man" or "you're not a woman", but I personally see a transperson as a person who was born in a male body but lives in what they and society incorrectly perceives to be the female role, and vice versa.

I am biologically a woman, as I was born with female DNA, female sex organs and sex cells. I do not live with any gender identity, because I do not feel it is possible to 'feel' that you are female or male. I wonder if I'd be called transphobic for that?

NiNoKuni · 26/10/2015 19:51

Aoife makes a very good point:

Why are people afraid of Greer? Because she says no.

The bottom line here beneath the headlines is that more and more women are saying “No, enough. Stop!” to male transwomen robbing the power of naming from them, as Daly warned. And we well know what happens when women assert themselves through the word no. As a friend pointed out to me, “No is the most feminist act; society defines woman as the receiver/yes giver.”

I was very much struck, when watching the GG interview, with how GG doesn't comply with performing femininity. I don't think I've ever seen it quite that blatant before. She doesn't feel obliged to smile, to soften, to pander or beat around the bush at all and I find that really quite exhilarating and inspiring.

I must admit, I've not really seen or read a lot of her and her work before, but I may have to seek it out now.

Glossy also wrote a very good piece if anyone's interested! I think it echoes a lot of what has been said here.

slugseatlettuce · 26/10/2015 20:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ChunkyPickle · 26/10/2015 20:54

Finally got around to watching newsnight - GG got that just right.

Totally clear that she wasn't saying people couldn't do what they want, that she would be polite to an individual, but firm in her refusal to call transwomen 'women'.

I wonder why KW was filmed at a distance, but they zoomed right in on GG - making sure we could all see how unashamed she was of being old and wrinkled.

I don't get how anyone could even try to spin what she said - GG was so direct and honest - no inferences need to be drawn, her position was very clear.

wickedwaterwitch · 26/10/2015 20:56

Thanks for linking to the petition against stopping Greer speaking, I've signed it.

wickedwaterwitch · 26/10/2015 20:58

So she has effectively been silenced then, if she's not going to Cardiff now.

IShouldBeSoLurky · 26/10/2015 21:09

I do love how GG's response to it all has been, "Look, essentially I don't have a single fuck to give." She's great.

Did anyone read the interview in today's Guardian with Erica Jong? Also v interesting about how one is perceived as an older woman. I'm not there yet but I'm not far off and it's fucking terrifying when you start to realise how you've been socialised for your looks to be your currency.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 27/10/2015 08:49

This from the Huffington Post is quite good.

Not sure that GG is comparable to DL though, given that she doesn't condone sexual assault, or demonstrate it in her talks, but, I kind of get the comparison. DL wasn't banned because he might tell sexist or homophobic jokes, but because he thinks that sexually assaulting women is funny.

howtorebuild · 27/10/2015 08:53

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3291097/Transgender-woman-born-man-sent-male-prison-despite-fears-safety-following-assault-conviction.html. It's hard to know if the mail have their facts right, it seems the Judge agreed with GG, not the Doctor or Tara.

slugseatlettuce · 27/10/2015 09:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

howtorebuild · 27/10/2015 09:09

I agree she will be a target and has a right to safety. I wonder if there needs thought on another solution? Tara is by her own admission violent. What about born Women who don't have the height and muscle advantage of Tara, if Tara attacked them, they have a right to safety.

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 27/10/2015 09:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 27/10/2015 09:13

No, the judge agreed with Tara's legal gender. Legally, Tara is male. Tara's passport still states that they are male.

That has zero to do with GG.

It has to do with Tara not doing this

Not sure that Greer has a whole lot of influence with the passport office, but maybe she does on the quiet. Perhaps Tara has a GRC and Greer has somehow blocked it at the passport office.......

howtorebuild · 27/10/2015 09:15

True, plays.

BubsandMoo · 27/10/2015 09:31

Are there any other discussions on this on here, outside of the designated feminism board?

It's just that I know some people find this board intimidating or don't like to use the word feminist etc, so I guess I'm wondering what women who don't identify as feminist nor are ardent trans activists think about this.

noodle that was a brilliant post and sums up my thoughts exactly

Swipe left for the next trending thread