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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Germaine Greer

531 replies

IamTheWhoreofBabylon · 23/10/2015 22:57

i never post here but I'm watching Germaine Greer on newsnight
Crazy, the woman is not allowed to discuss feminist issues without being forced to discuss transgender issues
Disclaimer- I really like GG
Am I reading this correctly? Why does she have to fight for a different groups issues

OP posts:
Kittlekattle · 04/11/2015 22:02

This seemed to be a bit of a shift from the usual Guardian stance though I lost her a bit in places. However good to hear someone point out the realities of womens biology and point out the contrast between the discussions on cisness and microaggressions with the fact that all over the world women are being raped and killed.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/04/its-good-to-be-genderqueer-but-dont-forget-the-sexual-radicals-who-paved-the-way

Gwenhwyfar · 04/11/2015 22:48

"Gwenhwyfar - I had to leave Cardiff feminist network for that very reason. It's depressing"

I know. What can we do about it though? Start a free-thinking feminist group? I suppose we'd get the same people joining and taking over...

BubsandMoo · 05/11/2015 11:09

I'm quite saddened that you feel like that, howtorebuild. I share your deep disappointment and am trying to get togethet the wherewithal to challenge it from within- I still feel the WEP is the best bet we're going to get to challenge mainstream politics, and effect real change. I'd rather be part of the movement and have my voice heard than be sitting on the sidelines tutting that they're not doing feminism properly - I'm not saying that's what you're doing personally.

howtorebuild · 05/11/2015 13:40

I sat on a table with Catherine Mayer, accompanied my dd to a WEP Youth event. If CM is not on the same page it's going to be a waste of time.

DecaffCoffeeAndRollupsPlease · 18/11/2015 22:48

How did we get to this point, where it's even conceivable, let alone likely that to state that only women are women is a radical position?

grimbletart · 18/11/2015 23:00

"We" didn't Decaff. A handful of trans activists with a dodgy knowledge of biology did, and "we" are giving this preposterous notion credence by discussing it. If everyone ignored it this tiny handful of people would be shouting into a dark tunnel with nowhere to go.

dontcallmecis · 19/11/2015 07:11

They'll be harder to ignore when they start taking women's quotas on boards, participating in women's sporting teams, taking up positions in women's colleges or scholarships or attempting to erase the word 'woman' from birthing policy.

Oh, hang on..

MultishirkingAgain · 20/11/2015 12:36

This article is doing the Twitter rounds.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-challenged-germaine-greer-over-her-transphobic-comments-at-her-controversial-lecture-this-week-a6741771.html

I think that Dr Greer's answer is really interesting & food for thought - or rather, at the foundation of what feminism is to me:

“I don’t accept transgender males post-operatively as female because I don’t believe a woman is a man without a cock.”

I think this is so so so important: for millennia we have had a cultural story told us that women are men with a bit missing. So we are defective not-men. Therefore not fully human.

She;s also challenging psychological truisms from Freud onward.

This isn't about transphobia. It's clear that Dr Greer doesn't hate transgender people. She is just adamant that a woman is not simply a man without a penis. I think this is such a radical statement still, which is a depressing testament to misogyny.

And also a reminder that all the liberal, equality feminist gains we have (and there are many) are not worth much if we cannot be public about the experience of the female body.

There's a beautiful essay by Virginia Woolf about women's writing, "Professions for Women," where she writes:

Be that as it may, I want you to imagine me writing a novel in a state of trance. I want you to figure to yourselves a girl sitting with a pen in her hand, which for minutes, and indeed for hours, she never dips into the inkpot. The image that comes to my mind when I think of this girl is the image of a fisherman lying sunk in dreams on the verge of a deep lake with a rod held out over the water. She was letting her imagination sweep unchecked round every rock and cranny of the world that lies submerged in the depths of our unconscious being. Now came the experience, the experience that I believe to be far commoner with women writers than with men. The line raced through the girl's fingers. Her imagination had rushed away. It had sought the pools, the depths, the dark places where the largest fish slumber. And then there was a smash. There was an explosion. There was foam and confusion. The imagination had dashed itself against something hard. The girl was roused from her dream. She was indeed in a state of the most acute and difficult distress. To speak without figure she had thought of something, something about the body, about the passions which it was unfitting for her as a woman to say. Men, her reason told her, would be shocked. The consciousness ofwhat men will say of a woman who speaks the truth about her passions had roused her from her artist's state of unconsciousness. She could write no more. The trance was over. Her imagination could work no longer. This I believe to be a very common experience with women writersthey are impeded by the extreme conventionality of the other sex. For though men sensibly allow themselves great freedom in these respects, I doubt that they realize or can control the extreme severity with which they condemn such freedom in women.

These then were two very genuine experiences of my own. These were two of the adventures of my professional life. The firstkilling the Angel in the HouseI think I solved. She died. But the second, telling the truth about my own experiences as a body, I do not think I solved. I doubt that any woman has solved it yet. The obstacles against her are still immensely powerful--and yet they are very difficult to define. Outwardly, what is simpler than to write books? Outwardly, what obstacles are there for a woman rather than for a man? Inwardly, I think, the case is very different; she has still many ghosts to fight, many prejudices to overcome. Indeed it will be a long time still, I think, before a woman can sit down to write a book without finding a phantom to be slain, a rock to be dashed against. And if this is so in literature, the freest of all professions for women, how is it in the new professions which you are now for the first time entering?

And there are still these obstacles ... Telling the truth about our experiences as bodies ... that sentence has resonated with me for 30 years, since I first read it.

AbeSaidYes · 20/11/2015 14:46

Tansy Hoskins (writer of that piece) is just another Trans Rights activist who went to the lecture purely to challenge greer on a subject she (Greer) was not booked to talk about. She live tweeted all the 'trans slurs' Greer supposedly made.

Anyway - I agree with Greer on this: “If you didn’t find your pants full of blood when you were thirteen, there’s something important about being a woman that you don’t know. It’s not all Caitlyn Jenner.”

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 20/11/2015 15:20

"A woman is not just a man without a cock".

I love that sentence.

MultishirkingAgain · 20/11/2015 16:02

I think that what is so important about it for me is that Greer is saying - oh so sad it needs saying - that women are not just like men but with something missing. That we are fully human in our own right and our own biology, and that this humanity is not necessarily related to that of the male.

Reminds me of one of my slogan buttons from the early 80s (when slogan badges were so fashionable) "A woman who aspires to be equal to a man lacks ambition"

caitlinohara · 23/11/2015 11:01

Kirsty: Would you consider saying something more ameliorating?
GG: No.

I love Greer when she is like this.

SomeDyke · 23/11/2015 16:19

"A woman is not just a man without a cock"
"If you didn’t find your pants full of blood when you were 13 there’s something important about being a woman you don’t know."
Says it all really -- female biology MATTERS and female experience MATTERS. Even if part of that experience is getting treated totally differently (and paid less) because of your biology.

VestalVirgin · 23/11/2015 16:44

Reminds me of one of my slogan buttons from the early 80s (when slogan badges were so fashionable) "A woman who aspires to be equal to a man lacks ambition"

Awesome slogan. Grin

MultishirkingAgain · 23/11/2015 16:49

Well, y'know those old second waver Women's Libbers knew what they were talking about ...

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 25/11/2015 15:32

if i have read this right, holy shit batman (didn't want to start another trans thread)
mirandayardley.com/the-trojan-horse-of-transgender-identity-politics/

AbeSaidYes · 25/11/2015 16:04

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PlaysWellWithOthers · 01/12/2015 19:09

Funny isn't it, that women found dead in prison or even men found dead in prison doesn't make the news, but a trans* person, who hadn't asked to be transferred to a woman's prison does.

howtorebuild · 01/12/2015 19:12

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3341473/Second-transgender-woman-dead-cell-male-prison-just-two-weeks-prisoner-hanged-men-jail.html

No mention of three murders, two in prison. No mention a recent transition either.

JoanFerguson · 01/12/2015 19:16

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JoanFerguson · 01/12/2015 19:18

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JoanFerguson · 01/12/2015 19:19

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JoanFerguson · 01/12/2015 19:21

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PassiveAgressiveQueen · 03/12/2015 16:22

so are your two links pointless now Joan as the 1st one rather confused me