So Owen Jones is as full of shit as ever he was...

[CallaLilli]

Here's his latest output for the Guardian. Note the penultimate paragraph where he claims to have been victimised by various Twitter feminists and has a very selective memory of what really happened.

If OJ genuinely believes that the thought of gay men going down on pre-op transmen is that horrendous, why isn't he writing angry articles denouncing transwomen who call lesbians transphobic for not liking dick?

My heart goes out to Owen, and the backlash he faced, it must have been awful for him.

Personally I think the claims that Ego is making this thread about her are unwarranted. She has shared a personal viewpoint with the aim of debunking the idea that all transwomen subscribe to the cotton ceiling nonsense, and, ironically enough (if I'm reading her right) is as baffled as most of the rest of us as to why someone who identifies as a transwoman would want to have PIV as the partner with the penis.

I do however still disagree with your reading of the last paragraph, Ego (and I was of this opinion simply on reading the article before I saw this thread). It is disingenuous bordering on dishonest of Jones to go "look at the nasty radfems, making nasty homophobic comments about my sexual preferences" without giving any indication of the context - namely that he had championed one of the most vocal defenders of the concept of the cotton ceiling. I think it's perfectly fair to ask Jones if he also thinks it's transphobic for a lesbian to refuse PIV with a transwoman, and then on receiving an evasive answer, ask the follow upqquestion about cunnilingus and transmen. Because you can't have it both ways.

Such innocence, I may weep.

Real tears.

AFAIK OJ is a cotton ceiling denier, of whom we have seen many. He blocked the women who tried to inform him on Twitter (so much for "I listen to women") so he remains in blissful wilful ignorance while he maintains his outrage at being asked for his views on vagina.

Interestingly but not surprisingly, no Trans activists called him on his rampant transphobia and bigotry against transmen and his literal eradication of their actual selves and the violence done to Trans men by him not accepting man-vag.

Ego, I think you're right that it is only an issue for the extreme end of online transactivism rather than for transwomen and transmen in general. The thing that worries me is the extent to which tgese voices are the only ones being listened to - that in some universities or feminist groups or even some mainstream media every one seems to nod along sagely when someone says "using the term FGM is transphobic" or "being a woman is about your internal identity" and attempts to question this are shut down as transphobic.

It feels to me as if these extreme voices are wielding a disproportionate amount of influence.

There may be disagreements but it is useful to listen to other people's experiences and opinions. Otherwise you end up only listening to people you tend to agree with.

Apology accepted.

From radical feminist Andrea Dworkin on "transsexuality"* and from Wiki!

In Woman Hating: A Radical Look at Sexuality, published in 1974, radical feminist writer and activist Andrea Dworkin called for the support of transsexuals, whom she viewed as "in a state of primary emergency" due to "the culture of male–female discreteness". Dworkin asserted that "every transsexual has the right to survival on his/her own terms. That means every transsexual is entitled to a sex-change operation, and it should be provided by the community as one of its functions." She further opined that the phenomenon of transsexuality might disappear in a free society, giving way to entirely new identities.[28]

Obviously this is an historical view, given the term *'transsexuality' because it's now acknowledge that transsexuality can't exist. The accepted term now is to use transgender, because that is real and identifiable.

We realised that trans* ideology is dangerous for women.

radical feminists were once inclusive of trans people.

So glad you acknowledge historical events.

So what happened that this was ignored? And it wasn't all about toilets. Stop with that argument. There are many non gender toilets in this world. Just as there are many single sex toilets. Now I'm off to watch Unforgotten.

Well if you read rad fem literature you will see a theme emerge like Sheila Jeffreys, Andrea Dworkin, Germaine Greer, Spivak et al.

Anyhoo I think we are fast approaching peak trans* people are seeing the consequences of opening up women's only spaces.

metro.co.uk/2015/10/07/university-changes-toilets-to-gender-neutral-then-has-to-go-back-on-its-decision-5428058/

Your confused.