Radio 5 phone in on consent at 9.00am

[Caprinihahahaha]

They just called to see if I wanted to go on but I have laryngitis .
I'm not feeling well so maybe I shouldn't listen. I have a feeling it's going to give me the rage.

It's such an interesting topic though - they are picking up on the students refusing to go to lectures on consent because they are 'not rapists'.

Right so his objection to the course is that he believes he and the majority of other students already know what they need to about consent and that in his mind it would be a waste of time. On that grounds I actually do understand his opposition to going, how many of us would, if we had the choice, avoid the workplace training courises that never teach us anything new? I wouldn't want to sign an acceptable use policy, as I wouldn't break the rules anyway. There's some level at which I think courses step over the limit. If someone at 18 years age still doesn't know what consent means that's a sign something has gone very wrong in their upbringing.

Darvel where does the figures that you asserted come from? And while I don't have a solution that will prevent every sexual assault or rape on every campus, I don't need to have one in order to criticise other proposals

If someone at 18 years age still doesn't know what consent means that's a sign something has gone very wrong in their upbringing.

Perhaps, but why should we wait until there is a victim before anything is done? What's wrong with a catchall course that everyone has to attend to make sure that everyone is on the same page? People who "don't consider themselves a rapist" sit very broadly across a spectrum of "acceptable behaviour". Even some women don't know what they should expect, eg like not being sexually assaulted by their husbands while they sleep.

Don't - people on this thread have repeatedly provided statistics to suggest that the rate of sexual assaults on university campuses are very high. Therefore, any argument like yours that is based on the idea that 'the majority of other students already know what they need to about consent' collapses in the face of the actual evidence.

There are links to the evidence base and to a good legal briefing (which outlines the legal obligation that universities have to ensure that women are not subject to stalking, harrassment, assault and rape) here www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/women-students-safe-equal

The part where he's doing a sad face while holding up a sign saying "this is not what a rapist looks like" was a dead giveaway for me thinking that he thinks that he doesn't look like a rapist. If he doesn't think he looks like a rapist, as asserted by the sign he's holding up in the picture attached to his article, what does he think rapists look like?

Nice side step though, because yes, the fact that he doesn't think he looks like a rapist is shocking.

An awful lot of rapists don't think they're rapists. An awful lot of people don't understand consent. Ched Evans, for example, would probably feel entitled to hold up the "This is not what a rapist looks like" placard.

Education in consent is a good idea - I can't understand anyone who would not think this.

I wouldn't want to sign an acceptable use policy, as I wouldn't break the rules anyway.

So Don't what are those rules you speak of when it comes to consent?

My italics and my bold.

Dont the Dunning-Kruger effect takes care of explaining why someone who thinks all they need to know could be labouring under a cognitive dissonance. In short he's too ignorant to actually know he's ignorant.

You want a link to that 1 in 3 statistic:

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11343380/Sexually-assault-1-in-3-UK-female-students-victim-on-campus.html

Of course you don't need to have a good grasp of the problem to criticize any proposals, but I'm afraid you are in danger of not being taken particularly seriously. You weren't even well read up on the news item of relevance to know he had posted an asinine picture of himself stating this wasn't what a rapist looks like.

Your whole support of the man in question stems from an empathy towards his position, and believe it or not I'm capable of empathizing with him as well. However his entire position is based on a faulty premise. First the whole point of the workshop is not about blaming men, it's about raising awareness of a problem that plagues UK universities. There is no implication from being asked to attend a workshop that anyone whatsoever thinks he is a rapist or even a potential one.

In fact if he is an A* star student on the complexities of consent you ideally want him there to have the floor for a moment as an example of how people should behave re: consent. If your trying to generate a decent social environment for everyone to study and network free from any form of sexual abuse, you need to establish that as the normal dominant paradigm within which everyone operates.

Essentially you either agree that rape and sexual assaults at UK Universities are things we should stamp out or you don't. I wouldn't actually knock anyone trying to do anything about it, unless you're willing to submit a workable alternative. Otherwise being critical is only just so much mental masturbation on your part. Besides all you bring at this point is your opinion, backed up with very little constructive evidence. Might I respectfully respect you refrain from adding anything else , as all you are doing is restating your opinion ad nauseum. We know your position and don't subscribe to it. If you have anything at all evidence based or constructive to bring I'm all ears.

On a separate note and in an attempt to move the discussion on further I remember coming across the idea in psychological development that teenagers don't develop the ability to read facial expressions and body language in any great complexity until on average at around 18. I think that could if true have some relevance, has anyone else come across this? I'll try and dig it up myself in any case.

I am aware for example we get 20 mph speed limits in a lot of town centers thanks to the fact that the ability to judge respective velocities of cars and when they will arrive doesn't kick in until around 16, and obviously many teens below that are out and about so therefore 20mph is the safest speed to drive to avoid killing/injuring young people, as they have difficulty judging speeds of cars going above that.

Thanks for linking to the stats. And I agree sexual assault at university is something we should stamp out. And while I'm not knocking this course because I do see how it would benefit some, I think it's value is being overestimated here. You assumption that a workshop will have any affect on the 1/3 figure assumes that a rapist will decide not to rape once they've been taught that it's wrong. Is that likely? Yes, the rapists who don't identify as rapists because they don't know what consent means probably will walk away and refrain from raping, but many others won't. The course will have no affect on them. So I'm not saying this workshop won't have any results, it will have results but those results will be minimal

Eldon not sure what you're asking. We all know what consent ie.

Dont absolutely I have no idea what the effect will be. I am however eager to see the results. Doing something is better than doing nothing, and if that doesn't work: Sit and have another think and try something else...

More fool us really, for engaging for 9 pages with someone who has no intention of actually engaging.

Others I am engaging I just have no intention of agreeing with an opinion that I feel is flawed. Yes the course will have results but they will be minimal. I can't help thinking we would be better focused on tackling the issue another way although I'm not quite sure what that should be. However just because I dont have any alternative proposal it doesn't mean that I can't criticise other proposals.

Criticise away.

However, what you've done for 9 pages isn't criticism, it's defending a young man who has decided not to do a consent workshop because he thinks he doesn't fit into some rapist's worldview. He quite literally doesn't think he looks like a rapist, and that is why he's not going to engage with the workshop.

No one has asked you to provide alternatives, so, your repeated statement that you don't have to shows that you aren't reading what people have taken the time and trouble to write.

Nobody is asking you to help thinking that there would be better way of tackling the issues, I'm pretty sure there are better ways, why do you keep suggesting that we're asking you to stop thinking that?

To explain again:

There is a ridiculously high incidence of sexual crime on campus.

There have been studies that have shown that when the word rape is removed from the equation, university age men will admit to having engaged in behaviour which is rape, possibly due to not having a well developed idea of what consent looks like.

A possible solution for this is that men at uni attend a workshop that helps them to explore what consent really looks like.

A white MC young man decides that, far from trying to solve an endemic rape problem, what the workshop is actually doing is accusing him of being a rapist.

He writes a pretty poor article for his student magazine, which promotes rape myth after rape myth and has a picture taken of himself holding up a sign which states that he is not what a rapist looks like.

What no one has done is suggested that the consent workshop is is a panacea which will solve campus rape.

What we have done is discussed why his refusal to engage with it could be problematic, and what you've done is state that we think it's all going to solve everything, but that, because he says he's not a rapist and knows everything about consent, he doesn't need to attend.... which, to me, looks like you are refusing to engage with any of the points raised in any meaningful way. My apologies if I have read every single one of your posts wrongly.

If he doesn't look like a rapist, who does? What does a rapist looks like... maybe only those people should attend a workshop?

Donthave - you haven't actually come up with any valid criticisms of the workshop at all. Your opinion seems to be 'he shouldn't have to go if he doesn't want to" and 'it probably won't work anyway' - although how you can know the latter is beyond me- you're just guessing.

Surveys have shown that young people in particular are poorly educated in consent. Survey questions such as 'Is a man justified in forcing a woman to have sex because he's bought her drinks all night/dinner?' shockingly come back with positive responses - from memory approx 1/5 though this was justified or acceptable.

The way to change these attitudes is through education about consent - and for it to have any effect at all, these workshops need to be compulsory. If students can choose to attend, then the message will not be getting through to everyone. And it needs to.

"A white MC young man decides that, far from trying to solve an endemic rape problem, what the workshop is actually doing is accusing him of being a rapist."

Well it sort of is. There whole point of the workshop is to educate people about what consent means, so the implication in asking a person to go is that you aren't sure they know what consent is. And while I appreciate that you have no way of knowing, it's still going to be offensive to someone who does know, the idea that others are doubting them.

Greenwood I went to have a look at the survey you discussed but I didn't get any results on google for that phrase, the nearest I got was a survey in the 1980's and one of the questions was "Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn't want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?" (Koss, 1988; Koss, Gidycz, and Wisniewski, 198", and if the person answered yes they counted that as a rape. Have I got the correct survey or a different one?

You've got a different one, the one I read was very recent. I'll see if I can find it tomorrow.

You've got a different one, the one I read was very recent. I'll see if I can find it tomorrow.

You've got a different one, the one I read was very recent. I'll see if I can find it tomorrow.

"Greenwood I went to have a look at the survey you discussed but I didn't get any results on google for that phrase, the nearest I got was a survey in the 1980's and one of the questions was "Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn't want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs?" (Koss, 1988; Koss, Gidycz, and Wisniewski, 198", and if the person answered yes they counted that as a rape. Have I got the correct survey or a different one?"
Well, that counts as rape because it is rape............

And there we have it.

Exactly the problem with this bloke's attitude summed up in the total lack of recognition of rape.

"Well, that'll be because legally that would be rape.

I thought everyone understood everything there was to know about consent, so workshops were insulting."

I am recognizing rape. I'm asking if I got the right survey or not. Greenwood said no and that she'd look to find me the one she was referring to.