Radio 5 phone in on consent at 9.00am

[Caprinihahahaha]

They just called to see if I wanted to go on but I have laryngitis .
I'm not feeling well so maybe I shouldn't listen. I have a feeling it's going to give me the rage.

It's such an interesting topic though - they are picking up on the students refusing to go to lectures on consent because they are 'not rapists'.

Sorry Chunky, I could see where the driving analogy was heading, but Don't laboured it somewhat.

Every year, I have to do an equality and diversity refresher. I am all about E&D. I am the goto person for E&D where I work. I still go, every year, because, even though I know a lot, I have learned something every single year. Even though I know a lot, It is still interesting. Even though I know a lot, if I fuck up and do not treat people with respect and sensitivity, I can and will lose my job.

It's an hour or so. Nobody has ever accused me of being a racist because I have undergone further E&D training.

If I refused however........

"The determination that you shouldn't go is a good indicator that you probably need to."

Sorry but that just seems like all you're doing is shutting down discussion on the subject. If a man disagrees with what you say, you take the disagreement itself as proof that you are right and that man needs to go on a course. Determination not to go isn't an indicator that you should imo, it just means you don't want to go to the course.

"If they thought consent was more important than their own feelings, they'd either go."

I don't think it's a case of putting their need above everyone elses. It's their choice whether they go, and you don't need them to go, so why shouldn't it be up to them whether they do go? What if they didn't want to go to the course, but agreed that consent was more important than their own feelings?

"Female needs and boundaries coming second to male desire... Rather reminds one of something, doesn't it?"

Wanting a man to go to a workshop is not a female need, so he's not putting your needs second with his desire not to go. I'm not saying that this course is pointless, I can see it being very useful in some cases. Some men would be happy to go for whatever reason, maybe they already feel they know enough but will go on the off chance that they pick up something, others may not be totally confident in their ability to tell when someone is consenting and would like to explore the issue of consent in a safe environment where they can learn about things. But there are others who would chose not to go, and that refusal to go can't be treated as an indicator that they should go imo. Not going to a workshop about consent doesn't mean you oppose the right to consent/not consent itself, it just means you aren't going a workshop on it.

I'm not shutting down discussion. I'm expressing my view.

There is actually no good reason for a man to determinedly refuse to attend a course and his persistence in doing so, on the basis that he feels he doesn't need it, strikes me as a good indicator that he is both arrogant and self indulgent.

His affront at being asked trumps the very obvious need of younger adults to communicate consent much more effectively.

Very blinkered. Determinedly so.

My daughter is a highly talented swimmer. When we went on holiday we were asked to attend a compulsory talk on safety in the water before we could do the water sports.
If she had complained about attending I would have told her not to be a dick.
The hotel need to get everyone up to the same basic standard. Loftily opting out because you know better undermines that. The worst that would happen is that she would be bored [gasp] at best it's a good reminder.
What's the problem?

She attended because she isn't a dick.

"There is actually no good reason for a man to determinedly refuse to attend a course and his persistence in doing so, on the basis that he feels he doesn't need it, strikes me as a good indicator that he is both arrogant and self indulgent. "

Oh you're talking about a man who would persistently refuse to attend a course despite only being asked once? Sorry I thought you were meaning a man who said no, you kept asking, and he kept saying no, crossed wires sorry. In this case then I do agree he may be such a person who would benefit from a course. I say that because if you repeatedly say "I'm not going!" to someone who just asked you once if you would consider going, it seems a bit odd. Sort of like protesting too much in a way. You've already said no and the subject has been dropped, so to repetaedly bring it up again in the sense of "I'm not going...im not you know, im not going, i hope you know I'm not going" is definitely very strange.

"His affront at being asked trumps the very obvious need of younger adults to communicate consent much more effectively."

No it doesn't. He isn't preventing adults who feel they could do with a workshop on consent from going to that workshop. He's not trumping their need to be educated in what consent means, or getting in the way of them receiving them knowledge.

I must confess I'm now incredibly curious as to what one learns at a consent awareness workshop, has anyone actually been on one?

In all the coverage over this University workshop seems to boil down to some guy being affronted, not even going and writing such in a student magazine. If I'd felt as he does I'd at least go to the thing to construct a rebuttal of the workshop. As it stands he's probably wasted more of his time not going to this thing and writing about it than if he'd sucked it up and gone.

I'm also not sure where a compulsorary workshop generates an implicit assumption "I am a man and therefore are a rapist". To be honest I've sat through innumerable health and safety briefings and not once learnt anything that wasn't already common sense to me in the first place. I would never once countenance not going or throwing a strop over it, because the general fuckwittery of the human race seems to indicate we need health and safety seminars otherwise there will be legions of people hammering nails in their faces whilst going up the wrong kinds of ladder. I can't imagine a consent seminar being hugely different in there will always be people that could benefit from having it spelt out to them.

In the interests of trying to be constructive I'd like my ideal consent workshop to go into what I can do to make society a little bit safer and kinder. Like what should I look out for to keep friends (or even strangers for that matter!) safe. What should I be aware of in terms of general conversation so if the topic comes up in mixed company if unbeknownst to me there is a victim present they feel wider society doesn't blame them?

The 'determinedly'' refers to refusing to attend a compulsory course.
And then going to the press to complain that asking you to attend the course is virtually accusing you of being a rapist.
And talking about how most men don't rape as justification for refusing.
And finding reasons why some men shouldn't have to go.

That's 'determinedly' refusing.
Also banging on about why men shouldn't have to go when you haven't been asked yourself - that's pretty determined too.

This sort of thing is also covered under "determined'

"This is not what a rapist look like" is a whole other category of stupid as all fuck.

I think the only decent point is that women should attend too.

There was a lady talking on the same radio programme yesterday, alongside the man who scared the life out of me, and she was referring to that dervel, that it was a whole community effort, that it was about people, male and female, feeling confident to intervene if they saw a man behave in a sexually aggressive way to a woman in public. The sort of behaviour that is often written off as 'a bit of fun' and women who object to it are belittled as joyless and uptight. I'm 40 now, and I wish that when I was 20 I had known that I didn't actually have to accept men groping me, that it wasn't meant to be flattering and it wasn't a bit of fun. That grabbing my boobs in public and commenting on the size of them (which made me want to burst into tears) wasn't a compliment, it was an assault.

"This is not what a rapist look like" is a whole other category of stupid as all fuck.

Especially as that is exactly what some rapists look like.

Rapists aren't born with "I'm a rapist" shaped birthmarks after all. They hail from all races, colours, creeds and walks of life.

Self-selecting whether or not to attend a compulsory workshop about such an important subject is pretty determined behaviour. You'd have to be pretty invested in nice middle class white boys protecting their reputations not to understand that.

And I'd have zero problem attending a similar workshop.

Even with all my learning and personal experience, I wouldn't be arrogant enough to suggest that I know everything about the subject.

"And finding reasons why some men shouldn't have to go."

They don't need to give you a reason for not going.

"Self-selecting whether or not to attend a compulsory workshop about such an important subject is pretty determined behaviour."

No it's not, it's just a choice made on the part of the individual that the workshop isn't for them. Surely the only determined behaviour would be the people who persisted in trying to make them go?

But don't there are so many times in life that we have to attend courses, or accept advice, on things that we don't think we need.

If you are a woman in hospital having had your second baby, you are still expected to accept advice on how to breastfeed a baby/change a nappy/hold a baby etc. I didn't feel like I needed that advice, but I listened to it and let the midwife tick a box on my discharge papers, rather than protest vehemently that I didn't need it.

I used to work in financial services, and every three months I had to attend training on spotting money laundering. It was exactly the same training material every quarter for the whole ten years that I worked there. But it was still compulsory.

I'm not going to make them go.
I am going to make huge assumptions about them and encourage my daughter to give them the widest possible berth.
Whether that be because they are actively dangerous or merely arrogant, selfish, self absorbed tossers barely matters.

Consent's not just about rape, surely? I would hope that going on a course like this might give men the confidence to speak up when they are with other men who are being dicks around women- the sort of men who are too insistent that a girl dance with him because she's not dancing with another man just with her girlfriends.....that sort of thing. Discussion of consent should surely cover personal space, male entitlement-that sort of thing.

No it's not, it's just a choice made on the part of the individual that the workshop isn't for them. Surely the only determined behaviour would be the people who persisted in trying to make them go?

Do you keep missing the word compulsory or something? Missing a compulsory thing because it makes you sad, but doesn't infringe on your human rights, or suggest you're a bad person is the epitome of determined behaviour.

I have to attend compulsory E&D training. I've explained why that might not be an appropriate use of my time. I still go. a) because it's compulsory and b) because, despite knowing an awful lot about the subject, I am not arrogant enough to think that I know everything. Obviously being a middle class white boy means that he is that arrogant.

And yes Buffy, and they keep telling us that feminism isn't needed anymore

And I would wholeheartedly agree with you there hesterton.

If we're going to rely on educational establishments to teach our children about consent in a structured way, then I would suggest that starting in EYFS would be the way to go. If you can teach very small children about the basics of consent... turn taking, kind hands, having bodily autonomy and the language to say no to things are the building blocks of this. The younger the better.

However, this workshop was put on after a specific and sustained request due to the enormous number of sexual assaults/rapes that occur within tertiary educational establishments.

I regularly ask DS whether they explicitly talk about consent in PHSE, and he says they don't. I'm going to raise it with the school soon.

Completely agree hesterton, but as long as that isn't happening I'm pleased some people are trying to do something. The women's officer who was organising te sessions wrote a great blog post to that effect

"Every year, I have to do an equality and diversity refresher. I am all about E&D. I am the goto person for E&D where I work. I still go, every year, because, even though I know a lot, I have learned something every single year. Even though I know a lot, It is still interesting. Even though I know a lot, if I fuck up and do not treat people with respect and sensitivity, I can and will lose my job. "

Completely agree with this. The day I think "I've got this E&D stuff licked, no need to attend ever again" is the day I hand in my (not at all fictitious) feminist card

So just out of interest how many posters here have gone on a consent learning 'workshop' (a little nod to Alexie) ?

I've never been offered one, if I was, I'd go.

That help cadno?