Why strip clubs are so wrong

[bodenbiscuit]

A male friend of mine is annoying me because he apparently wants me to go to a strip club with him.

I am very surprised at him because he's a cerebral and generally decent person. I thought better of him to be honest.

I said to him that strip clubs objectify women the same way that prostituion does and he said they are a form of art - I mean seriously what disingenuous bolleaux.

Now he is saying that I'm not being mature about it because I won't change my mind. Apparently the men are the ones being exploited (eye roll) oh that old chestnut.

So how do those of you more eloquent than I argue your point on this one?

Do you think username of sausages is this Tony person?
Makes sense....

But if the patriarchy were anthropomorphised, as Tone seems to think when he says it's choosing to use tools, a be-winged penis would probably be about right

I think I've followed the thread of those two comments - he's saying:

If the patriarchy supports sex work, then why does it use bad words to describe it.

And since they use bad words to describe it, that must mean that the patriarchy hates it.

Rad Fems hate sex work too, therefore they must be working for the patriarchy to bring it down.

A couple of poor logic leaps there...

Oooo I have suddenly grown a penis? Well DH will be most miffed.

If a guy with a flying penis award is or isn't a credible source the metrics he has used to produce his arguments are easily followed so anyone here could check them. And all of a sudden 10 years of belief falls through the floor so it is either a completely different reason that the clubs are wrong or he is lying because he cannot possibly be right. Welcome to cognitive dissonance 101. He has never claimed causal effective from the club, if you read any of his pieces you would realise that. Radical feminism has for the best part of ten years claimed causal effect from the lilith report which Eaves have withdrawn and even object did before they imploded.

I am now becoming highly amused with this fred and I am sure some of the lurkers will be questioning things reading this. Perhaps if I was TonyN I would be writing this fred up and putting an amusing and twisted spin on the logical fallacies. Hey Ho better tell DD mothers day next year better be two fathers day cards at least according to some

People say anything on the internet though don't they.

The patriarchy is against sex work?

Most societies where sex work and pornography are illegal are not bastions of feminist power. Thinking of where I was born, the period where the patriarchy was in its ascendancy corresponded to immoral women being locked up in laundries, the brothels being closed, pornography banned, rising levels of sexual assault, and women excluded from the workplace. The ideal woman was virginal, pure, innocent and church-going, or the mother of a dozen kids.

This chat board and indeed radical feminism isn't a single consciousness

This! I was trying to find a way to express that but that's just perfect.

Bumble

There's an age-old trope that goes along the lines of women should be either virgins, mothers or whores. Removing one of those three roles doesn't mean they've replaced it with another role that women are permitted to perform, or indeed given women license to be, you know, fully rounded human beings. It's still men deciding what women are allowed to be and do. So no, it wouldn't be a bastion of feminist power at all.

So much yes to that, Buffy.

sausage you still have not addressed the point of whether stripping and other forms of commercial sex are incompatible with the equality.

You raised crime statistics as if that were the only problematic point. The issue you and Tone are avoiding is whether it is OK to leer at naked women who are only naked because they are paid to be naked. What does that say about the comparative status of men and women?

I'm wondering whether sausage can get through a post without mentioning Lilith, Eaves or Object.

Or a past discussion in lieu of engaging with the present one.

Welcome to cognitive dissonance 101.

Yeah, you still haven't addressed my points about that either. Or anyone's points about much.

I'm sure that lurkers will see exactly what's going on here. A group of feminists making cogent points about harm reduction, cognitive dissonance, crime rates and other things, and then you coming along and changing subjects you haven't asked your neighbour about seem unable to address and making personal comments.

Enjoy your amusement.

We see you.

I use to be a stripper, i choose to do it and i did it because i wanted too, same with the other girls.
Prostitution is not like stripping. 9/10 in stripclubs the girls are not forced. You can leave when you want and work when you want.
If you dont understand something dont comment on it, You dont get to control what other women choose to do with their lives and this is not what feminism is about.
Stop judging other women on their chooses.

No one is judging other women on their choices.

We are trying to judge men on theirs.

Funny how we're never allowed to concentrate on those though, isn't it? It's almost like men's choices aren't to be questioned. I wonder why that might be?

Third wave feminism has too much to answer for.

I genuinely don't know how anyone can RTFT and go, there's a bunch of bastard feminists trying to control women's lives and police women's choices. I don't get it. How does this happen?

Welcome to MN, Cats. I think you've maybe missed the point of the thread? I do too sometimes when posting on multiple threads at 5am.

Cats your choice is not made in isolation. Your choice helps perpetuate the idea women are a lower class than men. Your choice reinforces the attitude that it's fine for men to buy women to leer at. So to that extent, yes I am judging your choice in as much as I judge the men you pandered to.

Cats - I'm quite entitled to judge other women on their choices when those choices promote a culture where men feel it's their right to shout and whistle at me out of their car window in front of my children.

You see it is not only you who your choices affect

I'm quite entitled to judge other women on their choices when those choices promote a culture where men feel it's their right to shout and whistle at me out of their car window in front of my children.

I think you can judge that choice to be promoting that culture, but I don't think you can judge that women for making that choice. I mean, obviously you can, it's your head and all, but how helpful is that? From a feminist point of view, that choice is indeed not made in a vacuum; the patriarchy influences all manner of things from the sexual objectification of women and empowerment being reduced to sex appeal to poverty, the gender pay gap and lack of choice for women in the workplace.

I'd personally rather see condemnation and judgement of the men who prop up the patriarchy that forces women to make these choices in the first place.

I don't necessarily judge the women themselves - but I do judge the choice and the consequences for the rest of us. And certainly I judge the men.

Yes I agree with you. I don't know the women - they obviously have reasons for why they choose to do it. I don't buy that they are all happy either.