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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why strip clubs are so wrong

374 replies

bodenbiscuit · 10/09/2015 13:19

A male friend of mine is annoying me because he apparently wants me to go to a strip club with him.

I am very surprised at him because he's a cerebral and generally decent person. I thought better of him to be honest.

I said to him that strip clubs objectify women the same way that prostituion does and he said they are a form of art Confused - I mean seriously what disingenuous bolleaux.

Now he is saying that I'm not being mature about it because I won't change my mind. Apparently the men are the ones being exploited (eye roll) oh that old chestnut.

So how do those of you more eloquent than I argue your point on this one?

OP posts:
bodenbiscuit · 10/09/2015 19:44

The issue is the wider implications on society that treating women like objects brings.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 10/09/2015 19:44

yawn

sausageeggbacon111 · 10/09/2015 21:00

Interesting the comment about it being an art form. The East London Strippers Collective are exhibiting at the Red Gallery in October, more details here.

I have been to clubs with DH on a couple of occasions now. People are more comfortable nowadays about clubs in general and if the Kent University research is any guideline only 3% of people think there is no place for clubs. I have been to a hen night with male strippers as well and tbh the men are much better behaved in these situations. Not sure why perfectly sensible women can go crazy when confronted with men showing their danglies.

If you don't like it that is your choice, no one is forcing anyone to do anything.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 10/09/2015 21:03

I think that's the point of the thread though, sausage, that the OP's friend was trying a variety of methods to "force" (persuade coerce etc) her into going. Telling her that she was immature etc.

And so hopefully she's told him to get fucked. Just pointing out though that the point of the thread was that this man was doing this, which kind of makes your post a bit odd!

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 10/09/2015 21:09

And actually that's a really interesting point anyway.

So on things like stags, strip clubs are totally normalised and expected, for many men. Saying no I don't want to go is not an easy thing to do, in many situations. It's easier just to go along with it.

So while OK no-one is being forced at gunpoint, it's often not a totally easy free choice either.

It seems like such a glib response "oh well no-one's forcing you to do X" or whatever but surely just because you choose not to look at something doesn't make it totally completely literally and definitely never a problem.

Interesting.

YonicScrewdriver · 10/09/2015 21:17

No one forced anyone to go or not go to the black and white minstrel shows.

They still got canned in the end, thank fuck.

bodenbiscuit · 10/09/2015 21:24

Oh well if the Kent University research says that it must be right then Hmm

OP posts:
tokyobananas · 10/09/2015 21:39

ooooo love a think about strip clubs, I do.

A) Your friend's a dick because anyone who tries to make someone do something they've said they don't want to do and in fact actively dislike the idea of doing, is a dick. This applies whether it's stripping or sodding zorb football.

B) - long rant -

I have stripper friends, and I have attended many, many strip shows, both in mixed groups and groups of women only. Never been to a male strip club, don't care about going, it's not my thing.

I'll admit it, I love watching strippers. I love watching dancing, generally, and frankly I find female dancers a ton more fun to watch than men. I like that strippers are encouraged to look powerful, and to perform feats that require bravery and strong muscles. I also like the glitter and the sultriness.

I think that a strip club is the only place where women of body types that are well outside the 'thin white blonde' norm are regarded as properly sexy, in the sense of 'sexy' that we expect from actresses/pop stars/ all females presented in all media. There's no niche here, no othering of the chubby, the black, the bespectacled. If you can work a pole, you're 'sexy' - despite it being only in that shameful 'male gaze has value' way - but honestly watching strippers has made me personally feel better about my body. I NEVER see my own body in bodies on show that are regarded as 'sexy'. Except at strip clubs.

- HOWEVER - ---

I used to feel that all of this made strip clubs ok. That and 'well, if someone wants to be a stripper then that's her call' and also 'who am I to judge what led a woman to do this, and let's talk about ways women have to make money' and also 'if men are going to be dicks about it then that's their problem and lets look at that, rather than the women or the clubs themselves.'

But then, the more I went, the more I realised that what I'm essentially doing is making it ok for the asshole dudes, the dudes who go 'as a joke' (what joke? where is the joke? what 'laffs' are we having, here) to feel like they're not asshole dudes.

And also, no matter what my reasons are, my great reasons for loving strip clubs and my 'real' enjoyment of the 'art' and whatever I might personally feel about female bodily empowerment, I am still, by standing up for it, enabling a whole lot of leering pricks to feel better about what leering pricks they are, because they can point at me and say 'well, she's here! See! Women like strippers too!'

The strippers I know, to varying degrees, don't think much of men. I guess dealing with leering pricks will do that to you. But it worries me. I think to an extent it ruins your opinion of men. Though... the fact that that happens maybe says something pretty depressing about men.

Basically, I think it just fundamentally can't be ok, in the world we live in. Because it's just such a pure view of how transactional women's bodies are thought to be. And of what we're valued for. And it doesn't matter what I personally think about it. It shouldn't be ok for men to think they can go leer at women as long as they pay them. And to be allowed to think that if you pay a woman and she's polite to you, it means she liked you.

TL;DR - I used to like strip clubs and now I don't, because I think my liking them, on balance, does more harm than good.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 10/09/2015 21:41

I just googled the kent research as it sounded interesting. A news article on the research said this about it:

"Fifty-five per cent of all respondents in the research felt lap dancing clubs are appropriate in town and city centres.

However, the majority of people felt lap dancing clubs are inappropriate near to schools (83 per cent) or religious buildings (65 per cent). Very few (three per cent) felt clubs are suitable in residential areas, even though those living closer to them were no more likely than those living further away to report any nuisance being generated by lap dancing clubs.

Around one in ten respondents felt that there is no suitable location for lap-dancing clubs whatsoever; women constituted the majority of these respondents, though it was also evident that those over 40 were less tolerant of lap dancing clubs than younger people."

Maybe I've got the wrong study?

YonicScrewdriver · 10/09/2015 22:20

Very insightful post Tokyo.

ALassUnparalleled · 10/09/2015 22:26

Very few (three per cent) felt clubs are suitable in residential areas

This is very particular to Edinburgh but due to the very particular nature of the city centre Edinburgh has a very high residential element even in what in other cities would be entirely commercial. The street on which the Usher Hall and the Lyceum Theatre are located for example is at least 95% flats. Yet within this area in only a couple of streets there are 3 strip clubs. The councilors who licenced them are a disgrace.

Great post tokyo
The strippers I know, to varying degrees, don't think much of men. I guess dealing with leering pricks will do that to you

WombOfOnesOwn · 10/09/2015 23:00

My friend works in a strip club. To most of her friends and family, she tells them she loves the money and the freedom. To people who've been in the industry or related sex work, she tells the whole truth: she's got PTSD, customers routinely attempt unwanted digital penetration and sometimes succeed, she's terrified of what comes next now that she's been doing this for nearly 12 years and hasn't built a CV of professional experience even though she's brilliant. She feels she can't talk about the really tough stuff with non-sex-worker friends because they'll say "then just leave," not understanding that it's not close to that easy.

You have zero way to know when you go to a strip club whether the strippers you see are happy in their work, or pretending to be happy because it gets them more money. There's no way to tell. Consent is sexy, and sexy is mandatory.

So if your friend is fine being the guy who may or may not be subjecting a traumatized woman to more trauma, he can keep going to strip clubs. But the truth of the matter is, many strippers aren't happy in their jobs, and they get paid a lot to disguise their emotions and squelch them.

sausageeggbacon111 · 11/09/2015 00:04

The overall study in Kent multiple questions and having fully read it I am pretty sure one question had a response of 3% thought there was no place for clubs. I will go back and read it over the weekend.

I am not going over the back story again but I know several dancers very well now and strange none have even remotely any PTSD. I asked a dancer about it and yes some women probably should not go into the industry. But free choice. Anyway even the arch rival of clubs has died a death with Object disappearing up its own backside. If the key campaigner against clubs has failed well the people I now know in the industry are quietly feeling smug.

And about the art aspect, Judith Lynne Hanna a professor of dance believes striptease is art so I will respect the professor.

scallopsrgreat · 11/09/2015 02:57

I asked a dancer about it and yes some women probably should not go into the industry. Aah so its the women's fault for going into an industry where men routinely sexually assault them. It's the women's fault they aren't equipped to deal with that and if only they were a bit stronger/more secure/less sensitive/more suited to being objectified and assaulted for money then they'd be able to handle it? Hmm

WombOfOnesOwn · 11/09/2015 03:17

yup, that's exactly the attitude my friend has had to deal with for a long time from a lot of other people in the business. Of course, a lot of them have drug dependency issues and relationship problems stemming from their work, but they deny that makes them at all the same as someone who actually admits they're being hurt by their work. Strippers and sex workers of all stripes also very commonly inflate their earnings when talking to women especially--it's because women have this notion that it's really awful to strip for a normal wage, but "if you could make enough" it'd be worth it.

To avoid that type of judgment, sex workers often exaggerate pay levelsI've seen it personally when I was involved in both in-person and phone sex work, and my friend has seen it a lot at work, toostrippers will lie to each other about their take for the night, lie to their customers about what an average night is like, and so on. With men, the more they act like they're worth, the more likely it is they'll get paid a bigger tip.

sausageeggbacon111 · 11/09/2015 09:13

Some people should not do certain jobs, fact of life they are not mentally equipped for them. I would prefer dancers to be over 21 rather than 18 to be allowed to work. The Leeds University study of 2009 showed most dancers were happy with their work and a third were students paying their way through higher education. Although with Leeds being a University city I would expect that figure to be lower in cities and towns where there isn't so much in the way of higher education.

Doesn't matter if it is less than 10% or 3% that are totally against clubs it is a minority and dancers have the right to choose if they work or not. To objectifiy them by denying them their autonomy is as bad if not worse than men looking at women.

And the recent study by Western University on porn and how it affects men's views on women would suggest that a lot of guys who go to strip clubs could be superb allies to feminist battles. of course there are idiots, you get that in pubs and night clubs and restaurants, in most customer facing jobs in fact there will always be those who are complete wankers idiots. But judging by the dear delicious video there are some very cerebral men who visit clubs.

bodenbiscuit · 11/09/2015 10:53

Denying them their autonomy? Hmm

This is not just about what the strippers themselves think. It's about reinforcing a model of inequality in a society where men think they can whistle at women in the street and shout at them out of cars. This has happened to me lately while I had my children with me Angry it makes it more difficult for women to be seen as equals in the workplace and in society generally. The consequences are upon us too and we have the right to reject such treatment.

OP posts:
ALassUnparalleled · 11/09/2015 12:33

would suggest that a lot of guys who go to strip clubs could be superb allies to feminist battles

I'm a bit boggled by that statement. It's as convincing for me as saying battery chicken producers really care about animal welfare.

I don't as I've said often enough consider myself a radical feminist or even a feminist but I've always thought that fundamentally the idea that prostitution and sex work is OK props up all other inequalities.

AmeliaNeedsHelp · 11/09/2015 12:57

Making some drugs illegal is also denying people their autonomy. I'm sure those who grow, sell and consume heroin feel their autonomy is being denied too. That alone isn't a good enough reason to make heroin legal. You can't just say "its my choice" when you live in a society.

The government makes (and enforces) laws all the time which restrict the personal freedoms of individuals. Indeed, surely all laws limit personal freedoms in some way. Usually it is done to protect people from each other, to protect them from themselves, or because some behaviour is damaging to society as a whole.

The balance has to be about protecting personal freedoms whilst weighing up the damage some things to do society. In my opinion, in our current society, strip clubs, prostitution etc undermine women's role as equal members of society, and reinforce long-held ideas about women being valued for primarily their bodies. These things are sufficiently serious enough for me to be happy that prostitution is not legal, and to never go to a strip club.

NiNoKuni · 11/09/2015 13:17

The Mash is spot on once again.

He said: Whether framed by a tiny sequined g-string or jiggled in a parodic hip hop context, exposed buttock flesh is a powerful tool of female emancipation.

I am definitely more receptive to subversive anti-patriarchal statements when I??ve got a boner.

Grin
YonicScrewdriver · 11/09/2015 13:24

Yup to Lass and Amelia

vesuvia · 11/09/2015 13:33

sausageeggbacon111 wrote - "I know several dancers very well now and strange none have even remotely any PTSD".

Are you a professionally qualified psychiatrist?

scallopsrgreat · 11/09/2015 16:12

It's funny how the "denying women's autonomy" argument is brought out in relation to when women are providing sexual services for men. Patriarchy in action.

And yy Lass. Bizarre statement about feminist allies.

AnyFucker · 11/09/2015 17:10

Men who visit strip clubs can be feminist allies

That's the funniest thing I heard all year

Are you a comedian, sausage ?

Italiangreyhound · 11/09/2015 17:22

bodenbiscuit is he married, divorced, singled? are you? Just being nosy!

I could be out of line but I think he is getting a bit of a pervy kick out of 'taking' you to a strip club.

I once has a professor of Muslim ethics tell me about porn (overseas) and then offer to show me some! I think when the person sounds ethical/cerebral/academic or whatever, it is more of a shock.

Basically the answer you are looking for when he asks you to visit a strip club is 'no', and if he doesn't understand 'no' means 'no', he really is not your friend.

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