Why strip clubs are so wrong

[bodenbiscuit]

A male friend of mine is annoying me because he apparently wants me to go to a strip club with him.

I am very surprised at him because he's a cerebral and generally decent person. I thought better of him to be honest.

I said to him that strip clubs objectify women the same way that prostituion does and he said they are a form of art - I mean seriously what disingenuous bolleaux.

Now he is saying that I'm not being mature about it because I won't change my mind. Apparently the men are the ones being exploited (eye roll) oh that old chestnut.

So how do those of you more eloquent than I argue your point on this one?

I would love to see a report into the number of rapists that are regulars in strip clubs, personally my belief is that it wouldn't be many as the power dynamic in clubs seems to be variable based on size of wallet.

I'm not sure how the size of wallet affects likelihood of being a rapist.

Personally I think Keanu Reeves was bang on in Johnny Mnemonic - but he got a pasting for it (and I agree, whilst his villain speech, naked and oiled to the waist in Much Ado About Nothing made me weak at the knees, I have no need to see any more, and certainly not set to music).

I do wonder if the victims of any increases would feel so casual about them suffering if there is a link to clubs reducing rape and sexual crimes (which I haven't claimed) I just pointed out that 4 data sets show 2 areas falling in line with having clubs and 2 show increases in violent and sexual crimes when clubs closed. It is more to do with the fact that claims that link clubs to causing rape and other sexual crimes no longer have any foundation. The fact that we are now discussing a change in perception on what the clubs are all about suggests one of the articles of faith that were quoted by rote about every club for the last 10 years has now fallen by the wayside. It is interesting that there now appears to be a discussion trying to decide why causing the fall in violent and sexual crimes is a bad thing. In the 3 years I have read these boards I had never expected this turn around. It is good because it is causing questions that we don't have the answer to but perhaps it will encourage more research from both sides of the feminist spectrum.

I would love to see a report into the number of rapists that are regulars in strip clubs, personally my belief is that it wouldn't be many as the power dynamic in clubs seems to be variable based on size of wallet

No I don't understand this point.

No, there is a discussion on whether the fall in crimes is actually a fall, or if it's just moved elsewhere.

Off the top of my head, if a strip club opens, I'm likely to take a different route home so there would be fewer victims, I suspect that the women working in the club will be less likely to report any crimes (they don't want to risk their job), perhaps the CCTV and bouncers mean that the crimes move a couple of streets away etc.

And even if it did work, I don't think that having women strip to pacify these violent men is the right thing to do. I think the violent men need to be educated, prevented and if all else fails, punished.

It is interesting that there now appears to be a discussion trying to decide why causing the fall in violent and sexual crimes is a bad thing.

Um, no, the discussion isn't about that at all sausage, and I can't come close to understanding how you got to that from where the discussion is. Are you reading the actual posts, or merely deciding what you want to see and reading into them things that patently don't exist? It does illustrate what you believe about the women posting on this thread though, and I wonder why you want to discuss this with women you so obviously hold in such utter disdain.

I also find this sentence I do wonder if the victims of any increases would feel so casual about them suffering if there is a link to clubs reducing rape and sexual crimes completely beyond the pale. It sounds like the type of women on MN who say that women should stay sober, dress conservatively and stay quite so that another woman is raped instead of them. Nasty, nasty stuff. What that says is that we should throw these women under the bus of sex work in order to save these women. You might want to have a little think about that.

Crime rates are atributed to everything under the sun.

Levitt links arbotion law to falling crime in New York.
I know of claims linking immigration of a certain demographic to a rise in rape.

Most economists agree that poverty increases crime rates, and rates of violence against women.

This is the first time I have come across strip clubs being attrubuted to crime rates.
Mind you, pornography is often linked to rape/VAW. This would be part of that spectrum.

Another analysis could be that, say poverty reaches a demographic. Violent crime rate goes up because of poverty, the strip clubs close because they are no longer profiting because the locals don't have frivolous money anymore...

It is interesting that there now appears to be a discussion trying to decide why causing the fall in violent and sexual crimes is a bad thing

The thread was about the objectification of women in the commercial sex trade. It veered into what link , if any, there is between strip clubs and crime, which actually was a huge derailment (followed by DadWasHere's further derailment)

I don't think sausage has commented on the issue of whether the existence of strip clubs is fundamentally incompatible with men and women being treated properly as equals. Flora and I clearly think they are- if sausage doesn't - why not?

Having spoken to TonyN of stripping the illusion there will be a new data source available in a few months when the impact of closing two clubs in the Headrow in Leeds can be fully analysed.

Seriously sausage why do you do this? You are taking cool wifey neighbour to new depths. What sort of creep devotes his time to justifying stripping like this guy?

Out of interest, what other sociological or political topics do you read reports on, study and seek out "experts" to chat to about their upcoming output?

Stripping the Illusion blog. This is what he has to say on objectification:

I want to tackle objectification, this is messy at best because I am male and I can't answer for how dancers feel ... Yesterday I wasted several hours of my life reading scholarly papers about Sexual Objectification and in my humble opinion a lot of it is dressing up natural reactions with big words to make it sound bad when in reality it is someone applying their moral standards to other people. I am personally use to being objectified, not in the same way but judged by others for my looks and also being judged for the size of my wallet, I accept it because human beings do these things subconsciously.

The man has spoken.

Oh, and that 3% figure questioned above was clearly taken from here:

The research by Kent and Loughborough Universities showed only 3% of people felt there was no place for clubs so any claims of exploitation come from a small minority of people using terms to create a negative image

I have only ever seen sausages's name on stripping threads. Not to say s/he doesn't post on others, but I haven't noticed. Yet a klaxon seems to go off when a lap dancing / stripping thread appears...

Yeah, but Buffy, he's spent several whole hours reading about sexual objectification! But there were Big Words in it, so it's all bollocks. And people judge him on his looks and bank balance so he totes knows all about objectification. But he's cool, so it's cool, and everyone else should be cool if he's cool, cos it's cool.

People using words he doesn't agree with to describe something he's only tangentially experienced, I don't know what the world's coming to...

But yes, also moral relativism

Sorry, was too busy laughing and snarking!

How is he not applying his own personal morals onto everyone else too, if that is in fact what's happening?

Laydees you are forgetting he possesses the testicles of objectivity. They dispel moral relativism!

Of course Flora! I forgot. Probably due to my ovaries or something.

It's amazing, isn't it, just how vehemently some blokes will fight to defend the right kind of women? The right kind generally being the naked sexy ones.

They also slag off radfems in the comments with, you guessed it, sex-neggery! Didn't expect that, did you? If I was sausage, I'd be asking myself why I wanted to read anything these obviously large-testicled gentlemen had to say, especially when I'd lifted half my arguments from this blog.

I had a quick look at his website. After having a shower to remove the ick, I'm left wondering how anyone could present his arguments or evidence and think it would be persuasive to feminists? Surely even third wave cool girl feminists wouldn't have anything to do with a dick like him?

I'm not going to read his blog but does Tony have a vested financial interest in this or is he , as my son put it, "a sad git paying for women who wouldn't otherwise give him the time of day"?

And Tony , should you be reading this, "sad git status" applies automatically. There's objectification for you.

I think it's the second, Lass, but it's hard to tell as the blogger/s are not forthcoming with personal information.

They do have a Twitter account I've just had a gander through. Found this gem:

Moral judgements are created by the patriarchy so if SW is part of the patriarchy why are moral stigmatising words used to describe SW?

So in fact the patriarchy is trying to break up SW and radical feminism is the tool that patriarchy has chosen to use.

We're the patriarchy in action, so we are.

The patriarchy is against sex work?

Huh?

Um, what?

No really, what?

Those 2 statements make zero sense.

It's funny how these men who think they are so objective can't do logic at its most basic.

It is quite baffling. Also baffling how someone with a be-winged penis as his Twitter avatar should be put forward as a credible source in a feminist discussion.