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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why strip clubs are so wrong

374 replies

bodenbiscuit · 10/09/2015 13:19

A male friend of mine is annoying me because he apparently wants me to go to a strip club with him.

I am very surprised at him because he's a cerebral and generally decent person. I thought better of him to be honest.

I said to him that strip clubs objectify women the same way that prostituion does and he said they are a form of art Confused - I mean seriously what disingenuous bolleaux.

Now he is saying that I'm not being mature about it because I won't change my mind. Apparently the men are the ones being exploited (eye roll) oh that old chestnut.

So how do those of you more eloquent than I argue your point on this one?

OP posts:
ALassUnparalleled · 25/09/2015 17:41

the patriarchy influences all manner of things from the sexual objectification of women and empowerment being reduced to sex appeal to poverty, the gender pay gap and lack of choice for women in the workplace

The vast majority of women do not work as strippers. There will be women who are trafficked or who have no genuine freedom of choice - at the other end of the spectrum there are women who do have a choice but either don't care or don't care to see what that choice means.

NiNoKuni · 25/09/2015 17:56

The vast majority of women do not work as strippers. There will be women who are trafficked or who have no genuine freedom of choice - at the other end of the spectrum there are women who do have a choice but either don't care or don't care to see what that choice means.

I can imagine all kinds of circumstances in which your choices as a (non-trafficked) woman are incredibly limited. There are also others where they're not so much. Race, class, economics, education and gender/sex all play a part.

I don't see any point whatsoever in berating or judging other women for their choices. Without a patriarchal society, without the men generating this demand, without the sex inequality that leads to women being seen as second class sex objects, they would not have to make these choices in the first place.

I feel we should put the blame and judgement where it belongs, at the root of the problem.

I do, however, have a problem with 9/10 in stripclubs the girls are not forced - so 10% are?

DiscoGoGo · 25/09/2015 18:19

I agree with NiNo.

(Whirlpool here have namechanged)

I was also talking to my DH last night and I realised that now I am hitting the age of invisibility, which is brilliant, I seem to get taken more seriously at work.

When you're younger I think many men see you as female first / person second IYKWIM (assuming they're straight etc). OK so lots would argue that that's just natural and whathaveyou, but we really don't benefit from this view of half the population being encouraged, do we. Having that view validated. And I think it does. Others say it has no impact. I think all of the more blatant objectification of women, in a society which already sees women in a certain way when they are between say 12 and 45 or whatever, really adds to the problems we face. I mean, women and girls are more than capable of seeing blokes as "a pretty face" but we are conditioned to understand that they are people too, and we aren't raised to leer or shout or whatever (occasional hen nights excepted!). We should be aiming for men to see us this way, not validating and encouraging them to see us as nothing more than a walking selection of holes that they are entitled to say / do whatever to.

I suppose there are 2 questions, about which the various "sides" are never likely to agree, because they take their "side" based on personal experience, what they want, and so on:

  1. Does the availability of women for men to "consume" sexually in a variety of ways in return for cash, impact on women and girls in wider society?
  2. If it does, does that matter?

A lot of men who support various aspects of the sex industry say that it is similar to any other relationship with a woman, even if that relationship is of the "cash up front" nature. What does that say? I find that really depressing. The PUA types take this view, don't they. This all ignores women as anything other than holes to access / body parts to frot over etc.

Just a few thoughts Smile

DiscoGoGo · 25/09/2015 18:20

"A lot of men who support various aspects of the sex industry say that it is similar to any other relationship with a woman, even if that relationship is NOT of the "cash up front" nature"

missed an important word there sorry!

Thelilywhite · 25/09/2015 18:45

Discogogo

  1. I would argue it most definitely does impact. It is, as you say, blatant objectification. Women's and girls 'worth' is based on how pretty sexy etc they are in any case, never mind if any cash is involved. This can only increase the more this type of consumption becomes acceptable/mainstream.
2 yes it matters, we are already going backwards in terms of the objectification of women and girls. If we continue to accept it as normal our fight for an equal society will be pushed back further IMO.
LurcioAgain · 25/09/2015 19:08

With NiNo here in wanting to keep the focus and blame on the men doing the objectifying, not on women making what seems to them the best choice available to them at the time. (And also in suspecting that most of us make choices which prop up the patriarchy from time to time to make our lives easier. )

I also think Whirlpool/Disco's point about the pervasiveness of men responding with the male gaze even when they should be reacting professionally.

DiscoGoGo · 25/09/2015 19:52

Yes should also say a resounding agreement to focus on the men here.

I'm not really that interested in individual women's choices unless they are detrimental to the women, I don't really look at any of this in terms of "choices" TBH. Men around the world want to have women (and girls and boys and men, in lower numbers) to wank over, watch, fuck, and so forth, and there will always be people to do that for them (for whatever reason). The question is how far do we want to normalise and legitimise this in our society.

I would also ask the question, of in terms of harm, say it is the case that none of this changes male behaviour towards others (overtly or otherwise), even then, what is the effect on females (girls and young women and women) of knowing and having it be obvious that this is the primary thing so many men are interested in about them, for plenty of them the only thing, and that a large proportion will behave in anti-social or illegal ways towards them? What effect does that have on the female psyche, how does it effect us as a group across the whole?

I suppose you could look at children and adults in different countries where different forms of sexual performance are normalised, including ones with or without money exchanging hands, and see how the female part of the population feels in terms of confidence, self-worth, what is important about them and so on. In "sexual performance" I would include both extremes of female dress (very skimpy / very covered) for example, different expectations in terms of grooming, whether sex encounter places are normalised and part of the furniture on the way to school and so on. I have no idea what the answer is by the way!

I mean if someone came along and said, it is a categorical fact that these things do not affect how males think, feel or behave towards females, and they have no adverse effect whatsoever on either the people performing in them or the female population at large, then I'd say well OK it's just me that doesn't like them then Grin like I never liked Page 3 or anything where the female form was just presented for the sole purpose of sexual stimulation for heterosexual men.

But. But, while the situation is that so many men behave in an antisocial or illegal way towards women, with sex based stuff, is it OK to shove it in our faces as well? I mean, you're 14 you're walking down the street, you have a man say "show us your tits" and then 1/2 hour later you walk past somewhere that he can pay to get a woman to show him her tits. That validates what he did, doesn't it? He was only trying to get for free what he would otherwise have to pay for. Just chancing his arm. Don't ask don't get! & what's the harm... I just don't see how encouraging this transactional view of women's bodies and body parts can ever be a good thing for women and girls. Or even a neutral thing.

sausageeggbacon111 · 26/09/2015 10:50

The question is are the men who harm women ones who use Strip clubs or porn or do they in fact not use them? There is no credible evidence either way on this and any research done on this would need to ensure the interviewees would feel like there would be no reward for making claims either way. Could clubs be a form of pressure release to limit bad behaviour or does it encourage men to do more?

The whole thing is there is no way at present to prove either way. If a sex positive researcher produced research showing clubs benefit women you would still get the claims that they are bought etc, anything to ignore any claims. And it goes both ways.

FloraFox · 26/09/2015 14:03

What is sex positive about stripping?

NiNoKuni · 26/09/2015 14:17

The question is are the men who harm women ones who use Strip clubs or porn or do they in fact not use them?

I think that's one question of many.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 26/09/2015 14:41

What is sex positive about stripping?

And why is anyone who knows what harms the various forms of sex work do to women called sex negative?

Oh no, I know, it's because men want to have women available to them at all times and in all ways and anyone, man or woman, who suggests that women should be able to tell those men to fuck off are totally against sex, prudes in fact. Because that's true.....

squidzin · 26/09/2015 16:13

What is sex positive about stripping?
Indeed.

You would still get claims that they are bought etc
How is buying a woman for sexual gratification in any way sex postive.

It completely erases the sexual desires personal to the woman, in favour of a man's fantasy, in exchange for money.

squidzin · 26/09/2015 16:23

could clubs be a form if pressure release to limit bad behaviour
Through that statement alone you endorse a notion that men are somehow naturally sex-predatory and so we should allow them an outlet.

I disagree, and belive that patriarchal socialization endorses a notion that male sexual gratification is worth more than a female's and so cash exchsnges hands to reflect that.

Woman's personal desire is collectively denied, through every act of paying for female sex-subservience.

squidzin · 26/09/2015 16:25

*exchanges

ALassUnparalleled · 26/09/2015 18:45

could clubs be a form of pressure release to limit bad behaviour

What an awful view - on so many levels.

sausageeggbacon111 · 26/09/2015 19:02

It would be if that was the truth, but you see this is what was claimed earlier on this discussion because all of a sudden the claims linking clubs to violence had no meaning, the methodology used to support the claims had in fact shown the opposite, but the people who were showing no links never claimed any causal links. So the claims of misogyny and anything that could be used to try and create a new message are being brought up. If someone as uninformed as me can see where the next sat of claims are going to go to try and close clubs I know others are preparing for those claims.

Obviously without violence where does radical feminism go to try and close clubs? Violence if proven would have brought sex positive feminism in line but the concept has changed so where can those whose beliefs have taken a bashing go? Sexual predator is in line with the beliefs that many rads would get behind ala all men are potential rapists. We now get to all men breathe and 2 million of them are scum apparently. Where now with the labels and stigmatisation?

NiNoKuni · 26/09/2015 19:18

Can I suggest we don't call it sex-positive? It's not sex positive, it's sex-trade-positive. Calling a women sex-positive means the women (or men, but let's face it, it's always women) who disagree are sex-negative. It's calling women prudes all over again. I am sex-trade-negative but not sex-negative.

Sausage, you seem to be arguing against all manner of things that aren't on this thread. Or that were on the board 3 years ago. Or something. And the big bad radical feminists who have soooo much power to close down clubs wherever they like.

Sexual predator is in line with the beliefs that many rads would get behind ala all men are potential rapists.

This is utter nonsense. Radical feminists do not all speak with one voice, for a start, and no-one here has said all men are potential rapists and scum. You seem to be fighting a very different battle.

BuffytheFeminist · 26/09/2015 19:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ALassUnparalleled · 26/09/2015 19:26

Prostitution, stripping and pornography are not sex-positive. They are based on sex being dirty and furtive and being something one person(or indeed several people) does to another. None of them promote sex as anything postive.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 26/09/2015 19:41

Surely we must be running out of straw by now? MN only allocates a limited supply and the MRE trolls usually need most of it.

FloraFox · 26/09/2015 20:49

sausage your post makes zero sense.

tokyobananas · 27/09/2015 21:51

Sorry, I was so excited to talk about stripping I forgot I had A Job and so posted then didn't come back but am definitely basking in the warm glow of receiving compliments from both Buffy and Yonic. Possibly my proudest day on mumsnet to date.

So many good things said on here but thanks to the person who talked about male strip clubs being a group activity, and thus about the group, more than the activity. Also, I think there is at male clubs, a comedy element. It's the comedy found where the powerful are presented as the oppressed. It's a funny game. 'Look, the men are our toys!'. But then you flip that, and it doesn't make standard strip clubs look very pretty, in terms of a power relationship, does it.

What I find odd is the men I know who defend strip clubs (and it is, essentially, all of them), mention how it's 'nice' for 'lonely' men to have somewhere to go and it's a service provided willingly etc etc.

That stuff, for me, is the shit thing. I don't worry as much about going to strip clubs leading to criminal offences. I worry about the insidious things. The idea that loneliness for female company can be solved by a stripper should be fucking laughable. I mean, the same way lonely people talk to shop assistants, yes, sure. But not any more than that. When did 'lonely' become a euphemism for 'doesn't get to look at tits as much as he'd like to'?

BreakingDad77 · 29/09/2015 10:47

When did 'lonely' become a euphemism for 'doesn't get to look at tits as much as he'd like to'?

As a man not being experienced with women till in twenties, these things just reinforce a warped view you develop of women. My brother a case in point he was even later, he laps up all the return of the kings stuff.

squidzin · 29/09/2015 11:30

BreakingDad, are you saying the existence of stripping phenomena warps a young man's view of women? Because I agree with that statement, and in addition this warped view is rife in popular culture, media and advertising...

ALassUnparalleled · 29/09/2015 12:51

As a man not being experienced with women till in twenties, these things just reinforce a warped view you develop of women
Even allowing for the possibility you went to a boys only boarding school the world is full of women who are not strippers.

I think that the existence of strip clubs precludes equality being achieved but to base how you interact with women due to the fact that some women (a very small proportion of all women) are in the sex trade seems odd.

Either that or the existence of commercial sex is even more damaging to the good of society than I thought.