Why strip clubs are so wrong

[bodenbiscuit]

A male friend of mine is annoying me because he apparently wants me to go to a strip club with him.

I am very surprised at him because he's a cerebral and generally decent person. I thought better of him to be honest.

I said to him that strip clubs objectify women the same way that prostituion does and he said they are a form of art - I mean seriously what disingenuous bolleaux.

Now he is saying that I'm not being mature about it because I won't change my mind. Apparently the men are the ones being exploited (eye roll) oh that old chestnut.

So how do those of you more eloquent than I argue your point on this one?

Well, quite, Plays.

Sausage, I know you've now opted to retreat. But right here on this thread in FWR you've got two women who've openly agreed with Flora that the problem is about the view of women that allows a culture of strip clubs, not about pockets of VAW. Many of the other posters agree. So, right there, not "every" feminist is focussed on one data set.

If watching You Tube videos of a white man punching a black man whilst he racially insults him causes a localised reduction in racial attacks, do we encourage the making of such punching videos? No, because it's inhumane to the victim in the video. Ditto the women in strip clubs, who are not some kind of kitchen towel to soak up VAW urges, as Plays has pointed out.

I guess that I think that every feminist believes in a single data set as fact as the Lilith report has been quoted for 6 or 7 years as a hard fact on which councils should decide to close strip venues.

Erm...I've never heard of the Lilith report. It was mentioned in an article linked to by Italian upthread as a source for a quote from an ex-stripper, then you jumped all over it, quoted other reports apparently negating it and accused all feminists ever of implicitly believing it and therefore cherrypicking their data. I think that's a strawman (strawfeminist?).

Whereas some (most?) pp are not arguing on the basis of data sets and reports. The argument is that stripping (and by extension lap-dancing and sex work) contributes to a society where women are viewed as sexual objects, not as real people. That stripping in and of itself is dehumanising. Not whether some strips clubs reduce or increase the crime rate or whether conditions for strippers are great.

If we want to go anecdotal, I had a friend too. She had been sexually abused by her father as a child, had a brief stint in prostitution and went on to run her very own burlesque business. She found it very empowering to have all kinds of people tell her she was attractive. So much so she gave (and may still give, I've lost touch) lessons in it.

The problem I have with that is that this 'empowerment' is actually just gaining external approval in a patriarchal society. The lessons are teaching women (and the odd man) that empowerment is gained by having other people tell you you're sexually attractive.

And that brings us back to what Italian quoted upthread: "I thought, well, I'm a sex object anyway, I might as well have it out on the table. It was as though I felt I couldn't do anything else. Everywhere I look I'm being told that my main source of power is my sexual power, my body is the best thing I have to offer and so to use those things in your job is empowering. But sexual power isn't power. It's meaningless in the real world."

Empowerment does not mean feeling good or better about yourself. It means gaining power. When the world's straight white male CEOs are doing a spot of stripping on stage in their spare time, that's when I'll revisit the idea of stripping being empowering.

"Empowerment does not mean feeling good or better about yourself. It means gaining power. "

Yy.

YY Buffy, I think it's as old as patriarchal society. Women have always had to use their 'wiles' to wield power. Concubines, geishas, palace 'favourites', Rosamund Clifford, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Empress Matilda, Empress Wu, it's all the same.

I'm pretty sure if you went into any concubine-like set-up throughout history, the women in it would tell you all about their specific skillsets and suggest improvements for their working and living conditions. The underlying power dynamics don't change though.

As a feminist, I can analyse these power dynamics whilst at the same time be concerned about the particular women involved in it and enjoy my own sex life. I bloody hate all this swerfery, sex-neggery BS.

Well I am desperately trying bail but I seem to be drawn back even if it is to respond to beliefs. No one know why rape goes up, maybe with clubs that have cctv and bouncers those men who would want to be violent choose other areas? Maybe the clubs are outlets that stop VAW in the broader arena by men letting off steam? I would love to see a report into the number of rapists that are regulars in strip clubs, personally my belief is that it wouldn't be many as the power dynamic in clubs seems to be variable based on size of wallet. Perhaps some research done into this would be valuable.

I have only been in clubs with DH 3 times so my anecdotal analysis of the men in the bars is limited but so far the few men I have talked to seem intelligent, kind and gentlemanly but I suppose under the eyes of bouncers you would expect them to be. The no touching rule and the fact that a dancer can get a guy kicked out (saw this happen once) would suggest that the regulars learn a level of self control because the alternative is being kicked out.

I remember a discussion on here a couple of years ago when I got the Lilith report rammed down my throat several times, and the praise of it by object on this board until it was pointed out to them Eaves had withdrawn it. And the number of comment sections on local online papers it seems to crop up in incredible

We are all complex beings with different views and desires, the world would be boring if we were not. I am only going on anecdotal issues I have come across at least 3 times on this board to make my comments.

What it looks like it's saying is that, if you close clubs, men who are going to sexually assault and rape women won't be corralled into strip clubs, and this is dangerous for women. Further, that the women involved in this aspect of the sex trade are in some way expendable and it's ok for them to be exposed, as part of their jobs, to the men who would otherwise be raping and sexually assaulting "innocent" women on the streets. That strip clubs offer some form of therapy to men who rape and sexually assault women, and finally that strip clubs work in some kind of sexual vaccuum and if they are closed down, predatory men are incapable of controlling themselves

I am on holiday and was just about to post something similar. We have data saying the presence of strip clubs can make some men behave appallingly and other data saying closing down strip clubs can make some men behave appallingly (or perhaps it's just the first set of men behaving even more appallingly )

If anything the second proposition is actually more worrying than the first one. "This is what men will do if they can't get access to commercial sex, but hey girls, don't worry about it as strippers are providing it for team womankind"

" No one know why rape goes up, maybe with clubs that have cctv and bouncers those men who would want to be violent choose other areas?"

Is it stranger rape that goes up?

Sorry, goes up/down? Or partner/acquaintance rape? Or both? or is that info not gathered?

If stripping was such a non-exploitative/empowering/free choice, why aren't The Men doing it.

They are, but there are no fixed brick and mortar venues for them (that I know of) in the heterosexual community. Male strippers for women ply their talents at hens nights at private/rented venues. Just why this is the case I really don’t know, because supply would certainly arise to meet real demand if that's what women wanted.

Perhaps women need known group participation to lessen possibility of individual slut shaming, or total anonymity from other women, or more security, or exclusivity of the male performer/s from random females, or permission for the behaviour framed in context of one-off special function/experience. Does not seem, at face value, to be simply a case of women not wanting to objectify a hot guy.

"Does not seem, at face value, to be simply a case of women not wanting to objectify a hot guy."

I am not sure how you draw this conclusion.

Does not seem, at face value, to be simply a case of women not wanting to objectify a hot guy

Hmm not sure about that. Aidan Turner appeared bare chested in Poldark and he looked gorgeous. Aidan Turner is a very handsome man. Would Being Human or Desperate Romantics or Poldark be the same if say Thomas Turgoose or Joe Gilgun (both excellent actors) been cast instead?

I think Turner and say Johnny Depp, Keanu Reeves, Vivien Leigh, Louise Brooks, River Phoenix, Audrey Hepburn,George Clooney are/were beautiful beyond the everyday norm. It helps that they could /can act (even Reeves in the right part) but aside from that I like watching them.

Maybe it's shallow of me but physical beauty is aesthetically pleasing - I suppose you could say I objectify such people in the same way I objectify a beautiful painting.

I absolutely 100% do not want to see any of the men I mentioned (or any man for that matter )gyrating around in a ridiculous faux-erotic routine in any circumstances.

And there is, as far as I'm concerned, a vast difference between recognising a person's physical beauty and "objectifying a hot guy"

There are male stripper strip clubs about (e.g. dreamboys), but DWH is right, it tends to be a group activity and is marketed as such. Complete speculation, but that might suggest said group activity is more about the group than it is about the activity. I can't envisage that many women going solo into a strip club.

Sorry Lass, but Keanu Reeves, admirable, beautiful and 100% mensch as he is, can't act his way out of a wet paper bag

I have serious, serious I tell you, doubts about whether he was actually acting in Bill and Ted orr rather just, like, being himself.

Don't fear the reaper, dude.

And he portrayed running really, really fast and then falling over brilliantly in Point Break.

Yes, yes he did. He's really good at running. And staring vacantly at the ceiling whilst absentmindedly stroking Lori Petty. And staring vacantly in all three Matrixes. And staring vacantly while Al Pacino's wall turns into writhing hell behind him in Devil's Advocate... That's just what he does. That and not ageing

I don't agree (My Own Private Idaho )

Maybe it's the random capitalisation of Nouns on that (brim full of Clichés) Site but dreamboys has rather depressed Me. Please tell Me it's not really a Thing

Dude, somebody called?

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure

Dude! Most excellent!