Why strip clubs are so wrong

[bodenbiscuit]

A male friend of mine is annoying me because he apparently wants me to go to a strip club with him.

I am very surprised at him because he's a cerebral and generally decent person. I thought better of him to be honest.

I said to him that strip clubs objectify women the same way that prostituion does and he said they are a form of art - I mean seriously what disingenuous bolleaux.

Now he is saying that I'm not being mature about it because I won't change my mind. Apparently the men are the ones being exploited (eye roll) oh that old chestnut.

So how do those of you more eloquent than I argue your point on this one?

Well as I am concerned with the UK and you do not seem to want to talk about the research for the UK your right the discussion seems to be getting nowhere which is a shame because I did wonder how people would react to this piece here. There are quite a few pieces and having them all on one thread seems a brilliant idea but I was hoping to get a response to the Leeds work as people seem to want to read it. But now it seems like that was wrong because it seems people would rather find a reason to discount it.

Your right I don't know about the methodology of the Leeds report but given it has been publish in a domestic journal after being peer reviewed you would assume that it has a reasonable standard including informing dancers of the work. But if people want to pretend that a research project funded by ERC didn't have a decent methodology then I will leave it to them. Alternatively perhaps you might want to e-mail the authors to find out the details.

The 3% figure comes from a question in the Kent University Study unfortunately I was think about causes a nuisance rather than the less than 10% think it has no place. Of course less than 10% is still a pretty small figure considering the 941 people interviewed. i do apologise most profusely I have been reading a lot of the research and got the figures conflated. And I will stick my hand up when I am wrong.

I don't know anything about Canadian Striptease nor the laws covering it. I do know about the UK laws and the fact that no dancer has ever been found to be trafficked in the UK. Perhaps that suggests Canada should adopt UK laws. Would people agree that the policies that have worked should be held up as an example? pentameter 1 and 2 were absolutely massive and yet no dancer was found to be trafficked. Why is that? And why is Canada getting it so wrong?

Other people may be interested, I'm personally not and I appreciate it you have gone to the time to answer questions.

To answer your questions no, I don't agree tinkering with rules is the answer.

I genuinely believe there is not a hope of women and men being treated equally as long as society tolerates strip clubs et al.

I want men who go to them to be treated with the same level of contempt as oh, I don't know, drunk drivers and people who don't clear up dog mess.

If society moved away from thinking it's edgy or cool I think so many other inequalities might fall away too.

What Buffy says about not recognising how crap the situation is may well be right. Certainly overstating earnings is documented.

Lass, I agree with you. I think it would be great if going to strip clubs was perceived as being as outdated as wanting to go to a Black and White Minstrel Show or something. Not cool and a laugh, prejudiced and ridiculous.

Buffy thank you, yes they could use a possible poor methodology but given the amount of papers and the amount of research they have done you would think that they would have put some serious thought in how they progress and the structure of questions.

The question of cognitive dissonance is interesting, 87% of the 200 dancers have some form of higher education. Does this make them less or more prone? Given that 31% were degree students I am struggling to see that they are easily brain washed.

Given the change in structure to striptease over the last 20 years one thing sticks out like a sore thumb to me and that is only 2 dancers have seriously complained and one of those co wrote a book with object so you would question her motives. And even she said that totally closing clubs was the wrong thing to do. If was the mind 90s when lap dancing as it was started but that no longer applies and given that an estimated 10,000 women are dancers and that most dancers work between 3 and 5 years you would think there would be hundreds, if not thousands of ex dancers coming forward if they felt there truly was an issue.

Feminism should be working with the dancers to ensure they are not ripped off rather than given club owners more justifications to take money off of dancers. I do think this piece from Nottingham University Student Union is interesting

mid 90s sorry

"The question of cognitive dissonance is interesting, 87% of the 200 dancers have some form of higher education. Does this make them less or more prone? Given that 31% were degree students I am struggling to see that they are easily brain washed. "

As Buffy has said, cognitive dissonance is not brain washing.

You do not know, but hypothesise without saying why, that the educated brain experiences less cognitive dissonance.

I do not know, but could hypothesise, that those whose brains are trained in exploring complex ideas might also have brains that can construct more complex justification structures for a given situation.

I have no idea which if these hypotheses might be right (chances are, neither, and it's more to do with other factors).

If educated brains experience less cognitive dissonance, does that mean that educated women experience less emotional abuse from their partners? Less bullying? Less violence?

I'm not sure that would be borne out by any figures, iirc, abusive relationships of all kinds are equal opportunity versions of hell.

Or is it just within the sex trade that educated women experience no cognitive dissonance? Convenient for those benefitting from women in those circumstances, don't you think?

I'm also unconvinced that any sample where 87% of the women have some form of HE is representative of all women in this branch of the sex trade. It certainly isn't from my experience.

Soory haven't got time to read, digest and reply to anything this morning, boys are being a nightmare and trying to get them and me ready for out days. I will respond later today or this evening. But I have had a question on my mind overnight and hopefully someone can answer it for me so i can understand.

When Eaves produced the Lilith report every feminist who believed that VAW was caused by clubs and accepted a single data set as fact. Yet when 2 data sets show that in fact rape fell in Camden and Newquay and that in Wandsworth where it lost striptease rape increased. Now to me that is 3 data sets yet everyone who accepted one data set as valid seems to want to close their minds to the fact that there may be something in the clubs nit doing harm. So taking 1996 as our start point for both councils we have Camden with 1.19 sex crimes towards women per 1,000 and in Wandsworth it was 0.69 per 1,000. Jumping to 2008 Camden was 0.85 per 1,000 and Wandsworth 1.17 per 1,000. It is also worth noting that Camden has seen a population growth of 22% compared to Wandsworth's 9%. Also the population per sq km is greater in Camden which would have an effect in pushing people to share space. I have taken the figures from the Stripping the Illusion blog and the fact is the figures can be checked by anyone. The author posts his methodology in the piece so anyone can copy it.

Now no one is claiming a causal effect on just 3 data sets but given that people were prepared to accept one data set as valid because it fitted their view does not ignoring three data sets that oppose the beliefs of people suggest cognitive dissonance? I am fascinated why people have not brought up more on the facts when they were willing to use Lilith without thinking?

BBL and once again apologies but time does not allow for me to take on any more than this until later.

sausage you seem to think it's a shame that the things you want to discuss are not being discussed in the way you would like. The problem is that you simply dismiss any research or points which don't accord with your views and make huge assumptions to fill in any gaps. It's really a bit pointless discussing things with you.

I agree with what Buffy said about longitudinal research however with stripping, prostitution or other hidden activity, there would be significant numbers of people who cannot or don't want to be found to participate, including those who are the most vulnerable. In what circumstances would a woman who is trafficked into stripping or prostitution participate in a study by an academic sociologist?

You dismiss the viewpoint of one former stripper because she wrote a book and therefore her motivations are suspect yet you don't seem to consider the motivations of any other source, such as Teela Sanders. Do you know her political views? Do you know how her career is impacted by the body of work she produces?

At the end of the day, even if you could produce unimpeachable evidence that every single stripper has chosen stripping over being a doctor, makes (and pays taxes on) more money than a banker and fondly recounts tales of her stripping days to her children, I would still be opposed to stripping as it both reflects and reinforces the position of women in society as objects to be purchased for sexual service to men.

I'm going to copy your last paragraph Flora for use when this topic comes up again.

I don't know what data sets you are talking about. Can you post them?

I remember reading some statistics on Camden and I thought it was not convincing. Camden goes from Hampstead Heath (which has no strip bars) to Tottenham Court Road (which has or used to have a number). Tottenham Court Road is closer to both the City of London and Westminster than it is to Hampstead Heath so I would not consider statistics about rape in Camden as a whole to be reflective of what is happening on Tottenham Court Road.

X-post. Thanks Lass

Sausage, you are also assuming that "every feminist" believes this;

"every feminist who believed that VAW was caused by clubs and accepted a single data set as fact. "

I can't imagine for a minute any feminist, or indeed any person, thinks something so simplistic. VAW has its roots in multiple factors.

But you are also mistaken in thinking that's the point, that if strip clubs caused no measurable increase in VAW we should stop objecting to them. I keep drawing the comparison, but I hope you wouldn't advocate a return to the Black and White Minstrel Show if it was shown performances didn't increase attacks on black people...

As Flora says, stripping reinforces the belief of women (as a class) as sexual objects for men (as a class) and that is the prime source of the objection.

Buffy I would agree with what you say about participation of vulnerable women. it seems to me that a lot of these types of research rely on outreach groups to access participants. Those outreach groups often have a philosophical perspective and are sometimes engaged in advocacy. That makes it difficult accept that the study is representative.

The "sex work" lobby seems to be learning the lessons from m trans allies as there seems to be an increasing trend towards no-platforming "SWERF" viewpoints. I'm not sure how far into academia this has reached but there have been some exchanges on Twitter between Meghan Murphy and various "feminists" who are trying to have her dropped from paid work for online publications.

If stripping was such a non-exploitative/empowering/free choice, why aren't The Men doing it.

I'd love to organise a night out with my female mates, all of us fully dressed in functional clothes, to a glittery venue where loads of handsome young men, with perfectly moisturized skin, paraded around in their CK's.

I'd pay one of them twenty quid to dance provocatively at me, and clench his butt-cheeks one at a time sort of left-right-left-right....

Society is not designed like that though funny that.

Surely you can be concerned about the impact stripping/sex work has on society and women in general and also about the conditions for the individual women doing the work? Why does it have to be either SWERF or sex-pos?

I guess that I think that every feminist believes in a single data set as fact as the Lilith report has been quoted for 6 or 7 years as a hard fact on which councils should decide to close strip venues. Given the number of times a report has been used even though it was

1. cherry picked,
2. the methodology (which we know everyone is keen on getting right) had no control and did not factor for changes in population.

The report has been quoted so often by so many it has become like a mantra and therefore one gets the impression everyone believes that one data set justifies a position. When you look at 3 data sets which show that closing clubs rather than opening them has a negative impact on sexual and violent crime you see a pattern. Having spoken to TonyN of stripping the illusion there will be a new data source available in a few months when the impact of closing two clubs in the Headrow in Leeds can be fully analysed. He has 6 months figures which show a 200% increase in sexual and violent crime compared to the full year of 2011. He looked at crime around every venue in England and Wales using the police.uk database in 2012. When those figures come out for a full year I think a fourth data set may warrant more people taking an interest in the four data sets.

I have looked into the issues with trafficking in Canada and we see some issues with definitions when it is estimated 93% of traffficking involves Canadians trafficking Canadians. if a person travels with their partner to a different party of Canada and one of them does sex work the other is seen as a trafficker. I read the pieces but the bit I focused on was the dancer advocate that said the clubs exerted pressure on dancers who came over on visas. This falls in line with the work to change club conditions which would be easier if all aspects of feminism came together to support the dancers and change the industry rather than the just close them. I really feel that Canada might be better off with the UK approach.

I read the paper Bindel put forward to Glasgow and if you want to see a level of misguided, appalling and stupid all in one report it would be recommended reading. I only read it once after reading what someone else thought of it and if you want to see bias in action then that would be a report everyone should read. I would link to it but as the Object website died I can't remember the link I just jumped off the resources page.

And finally another piece from an "obviously cognitive dissonant" person who must be making things up about dancers again here. We come down now to opinions and beliefs, I don't expect to change those just put forward facts where and when necessary. Now I tried bailing out previously as we were going in circles on opinions but this time unless an incredible stupid woozle like Lilith comes forward I will sit and watch and only comment when "facts" are quoted.

Having spoken to TonyN of stripping the illusion there will be a new data source available in a few months when the impact of closing two clubs in the Headrow in Leeds can be fully analysed. He has 6 months figures which show a 200% increase in sexual and violent crime compared to the full year of 2011.

This kind of thing is always interesting.

Even if correlation proved causation in this case, what is research like this, when used as a justification for keeping women in sex work, actually saying?

What it looks like it's saying is that, if you close clubs, men who are going to sexually assault and rape women won't be corralled into strip clubs, and this is dangerous for women. Further, that the women involved in this aspect of the sex trade are in some way expendable and it's ok for them to be exposed, as part of their jobs, to the men who would otherwise be raping and sexually assaulting "innocent" women on the streets. That strip clubs offer some form of therapy to men who rape and sexually assault women, and finally that strip clubs work in some kind of sexual vaccuum and if they are closed down, predatory men are incapable of controlling themselves.

None of which really works if someone is trying to suggest that the women who work in strip clubs are all empowerfullised and agencied. What TonyN is actually saying is that there are some women who he believes should be sacrificed to predatory men so that the public on the streets around them aren't attacked.