Why strip clubs are so wrong

[bodenbiscuit]

A male friend of mine is annoying me because he apparently wants me to go to a strip club with him.

I am very surprised at him because he's a cerebral and generally decent person. I thought better of him to be honest.

I said to him that strip clubs objectify women the same way that prostituion does and he said they are a form of art - I mean seriously what disingenuous bolleaux.

Now he is saying that I'm not being mature about it because I won't change my mind. Apparently the men are the ones being exploited (eye roll) oh that old chestnut.

So how do those of you more eloquent than I argue your point on this one?

Playswell i didn't mean specifically sex and i didn't say all men, what I am badly proposing is that the longer time you have no interaction with women except in 'accepted norms' as I have mentioned like prostitutes and strip clubs, porn, glamour, womens sexuality scrutinised disproportionately (and poor male role models) men will continue the cycle.

I'm not understanding - what about accepted norms like all the women you just encounter day to day - in queues, buying things at the shop, in class, teachers etc.

Why are those not relevant? Why are only sex-related interactions included in 'accepted norms'? I really, really, really don't get it.

Just because I was shy talking to strangers, didn't mean that I didn't know they were human, didn't make me want to harm them, or abuse them, or make them do things they probably didn't want to do, or pay them to do things for me!

the longer time you have no interaction with women except in 'accepted norms' as I have mentioned like prostitutes and strip clubs, porn, glamour, womens sexuality scrutinised disproportionately (and poor male role models) men will continue the cycle.

I don't understand this at all. Why are prostitutes and strips clubs being described as 'accepted norms', and what are these men doing that they are so completely sheltered from every day activities with women?

Are there women living their lives so completely sheltered from every day activities with men? How to they cope with that?

No I don't get it at all. I'm 56 and have never (knowingly) met a stripper or a prostitute. I know my husband has met one stripper - she came to him for advice about her divorce. He did not meet her in her professional capacity.

I'm in London on my own for a few days and whilst I've not had a companion to talk to I've interacted with loads of people men and women.

Where is this world which is populated only with sex-workers?

I would describe 'accepted norms' as work places, shops, roads and streets.

If A Man is encountering women more frequently in brothels and strip clubs, than he is in these every day places (and I struggle to believe this is even possible), then it's no wonder there's a problem.

However, as it's unlikely that this is the case, there must be some other explanation.

encountering women in strip clubs or brothels is "accepted norms"? What fresh hell is this?

Actual real autonomous women with sexual agency are not "accepted norms" but women commercially sexually available to men are?

Right?

I can only imagine we've all got the wrong end of the stick, re the comment.

If you spend any time watching MTV, or any TV with advertising, you start to understand the position of women as the "sex class", existing to accommodate male desire.

Pouting, uplifting bras, glossy lipstick, big shiny hair, liposuction, twerking, stilettos... You don't need to be a particularly sheltered man to receive these messages.

I understand "accepted norms" include positioning women as the subservient sexual sevant, while a man's needs are the most important. This is not restricted to the sex industry, but a sex industry is the outcome.

Er , yes but there is a whole wide world out there of women going about their every day lives working in schools, offices, shops just like men do.

*BreakingDad said As a man not being experienced with women till in twenties, these things just reinforce a warped view you develop of women

I and several others are struggling to understand how anyone can blank out all of the real, and indeed much of mainstream television.

I'm finding it hard to put into words, but are trying to work out why men end up in this place where we have compartmentalized women. Man spends day working in predominantly male only workplace, filled with 'banter' on 'wimen' and conquests.

The accepted norms is in apostrophes to mean that it is obviously not good but by letting exist society is giving it weight

As I said earlier, strip clubs glamour etc Woman having hoops to choose to jump through is not the same as being able to hold the hoop.

As I said I am not going to get into what people believe, I am only here when "facts" are being thrown around. Although the last blog entry that was written by (apparently me????) The Flying Penis does have a snigger at this "discussion".

BreakingDad so if a couple own a club does the female partner have no rights and no agency? Shades in Ampthill was run by a lovely couple and the wife was as active as the husband in the running of it. But of course a woman daring to be involved in running a club or pub would never happen except for those in the London strip scene discussed in this article and there have been others.

Also nearly all the agencies are or have been owned/run by women. So saying the industry is run by men is very clichéd but not very accurate. That person you think I am explained how the toughest owner/manager he every came across was a woman and she took no crap from anyone customer, dancer or staff. She had been seen chasing drunks out with pool cues apparently.

And finally the figures show over a year since closing the Leeds clubs violent and sexual crime has more than double in comparison to when the clubs were open. Not sure it shows anything other than you can't link violent sexual crimes to clubs. And it seems that Bristol Feminists came up with the structure for the claims originally and he was just using the same metric as them to produce figures.

sausageeggbacon so it was run by a couple, you need more info than that, so did she own it and he joined in, did she get involved "to protect the girls"

Women and hand maidens wether they be madams, mama sans etc have been complicit in these trades and this doesn't add any more legitimacy to it.

Oh dear hand maidens... women owning clubs is wrong in some peoples minds so rather than deal with it, create words that stigmatise. As far as I know joint ownership. So the women that own and run clubs and agencies don't own the hoops as you put it?

Strange how belief works. Someone earlier in the fred quoted the Holsopple report from the ex resources section of Object and even though it is over 30 years old and produced in Florida for Minnesota they still felt it was valid. So here is the strange thing I found out today, and according to some people I found out from myself, Holsopple was funded and produced by right wing christians as part of a campaign for more NGO funding. Now if right wing christians produced a paper on reproductive rights most of us with any sense would discount it right away and those who didn't would probably agree with what the paper or report was saying. So we have a report by a group we feel may have a motive to draw certain conclusions and that it drew on other papers but only those that agreed with its opinion and never explored any other part of the bigger picture. Now I have no knowledge of the American strip scene any more than I have on how the funding of NGOs goes in America and this is second hand data from "myself". But if you have to believe a right wing christian report that a charity commissioned you have to question their end game and if you should truly believe such a report. My thanks to myself for point out that I hadn't completely read a couple of pieces of research on my own blog and that I need an e-mail from myself to point this out.

Buffy your last post may mean something to your fellow academics but to me , means absolutely nothing at all other than you have spotted inconsistencies in Sausage's arguments.

Possibly I'm just thick but this type of language is often given as the reason members don't post on FWR.

So far as Sauage's latest posts none of them address the point Flora and I made-namely regardless of fluctuations in crime rates the existence of such establishments perpetuate inequality.

The fact some women are happy to own clubs and collude in that is neither here nor there.

They are sharing the hoops and also giving the impression that you dont need to hold the hoop as you have so many to choose from... as its just harmless fun and no one gets hurt, getting one over on men... etc (rollseyes)

People put in all kinds of proposals for funding

sausageeggbacon111 right wing Christians are a whole discussion in itself and the crazy ones that call themselves feminists of the sort, of that woman can't remember her name that trolls AIBU etc telling women there is equality you just need to get off your lazy arses.

They can be 'empowered' strippers (sic), work in brothels etc but god forbid they want an abortion......

Agree with alass in that I do also get a bit lost with some of the terminology, I understand bias and sample sizes, how different questioning methods work etc. A meta study would be needed if it didn't already exist to look at all those related to the industry, workers, patrons, the stalkers, the ones that assaulted workers, police, ambulance, social services. It was interesting in the study where participants felt they hadn't been asked the right questions previously.

For years generally research was carried out by white males in all spheres so even though there is alot published with hindsight it is all open to a lot of calls of bias. A lot of the failed development interventions in Africa grounded in science.

well it's not an art definitely. If we are talking about pole dance yes it's an art. But I doubt that strippers can do it without taking off the clothes

I have not been in a club which had pole "dancers" although I have seen , as part of alternative circuses, aerial performers using poles, which were beautiful and graceful and dangerous.

There was nothing sexualised in the routines or the costumes and performers were of both sexes.

I might be entirely wrong but I suspect that sort of performance bears little resemblance to what is on offer in a pole "dancing" club.

Nah, I've been in one of those places (a long time ago and under a degree of duress). It was grim, and one of the least artistic things I've ever seen

I am challenging the research that I think is wrong and I explain why. People are calling things "facts" when they have been proven wrong or in some cases the facts have bias. The UK research has been led by Teela Sanders and Kate Hardy and their standards are slightly better than a right wing christian group who are based in Minnesota but did their research in Florida (that always baffled me but cherry picking happens on both sides). So the Leeds research is what I mainly draw on. If anyone can show the facts to be wrong than I will happily listen but it seems if I want to dispute something I must be wrong. Well I maybe but I will at least read everything on both sides so when I do dispute things I do so reasonably sure of my position.

As to labels I remember reading recently that many radical feminists dislike being labelled SWERF or TERF because the connotations. Fortunately most adults look at what language a person uses and then judges that person based on the facts of what they hide behind. I include myself here, I am on the internet and I could be TonyN or I could be a dancer or I could be a bloke living in his mum's basement. It doesn't really matter to me what you think I know the truth and that is all that matters.

As to whether stripping is ART or not, why not get along to the week long exhibition? The pole class has already sold out I believe and it looks like there will be a positive message getting out to people. Society is becoming less judgemental, we can only hope that exhibition and the number of people who are going to the events is the first step to removing the stigma.

Society is becoming less judgemental, we can only hope that exhibition and the number of people who are going to the events is the first step to removing the stigma

What stigma are you referring to? The one that says commercial exploitation of sex is not a valid career option?

Or the stigma leering men like poor TonyN face because nasty feminists think less of him because he just wants to indulge his "harmless" hobby?

Or even the stigma leering men like TonyN face from other men like my son who think he is a pathetic loser paying for attention from women who wouldn't otherwise give him the time of day?