Ways men can support feminism...

[BertrandRussell]

I thought this was interesting, and posted it on Chat, but sadly only got two responses, so I thought I'd try here!

Ego, it feels to me like you are twisting my words.

And yeah, in my view, if you don't think women suffer more from sexism perpetrated by men than vice versa, then feminism probably isn't the movement for you. Maybe equalism or something is the movement for you.

Why can't I express an opinion about a fundamental tenet of my political beliefs?

If you believe in the resurrection but not transubstantiation, maybe Catholicism isn't the religion for you, maybe Protestantism is.

Can I say that?

If you believe that the trade union movement should have more power, maybe conservatism isn't the political route for you.

Can I say that?

I'll stop now, in case you want to reply.

So... What about points 1 through 34, then, folks?

And that's the kind of comment that makes FWR a pointless place to post.

This type of comment is a silencing technique. The word "feminism" can't mean all things to all people. Sarah Palin calls herself a feminist, for fuck's sake. No she isn't.

Beta test, you said you thought most men did most of these? What do you think about point 3, seeking out women's cultural output?

It's something I'm making an effort to do but it doesn't come subconsciously - easy in some areas like books, harder in mainstream films and journalism.

Feminism is about liberating women from the oppression of patriarchy.

If that's not what your belief system is about, then it probably isn't feminism. I'm failing to see what's so controversial about that.

Ego, with the greatest respect, you repeatedly tell anyone who will listen about how all the FWR posters are a bunch of evil, smelly, fat meanies, and yet you seem to spend a large section of your time lurking and commenting on threads within the section. It might be better for your mental health if you actually did what you say you've done on all the many "FWR are all hairy man-hating wankers" threads and actually hide the topic.

Not because we don't enjoy and value your erudite posts on every single thread you say you'll never post on again, but in order to help you to not have to see what is posted on the topic, given that it seems to harm you in some way.

And no, I'm not trying to silence you. I'll leave the silencing to you, as always. If you wish to stay, if you wish to take part, do so, if it upsets you as much as you say it does, I just don't see the point. MN is supposed to be fun, not a penance.

For what it's worth I do think some of the comments made to airside were on the snippy side, especially when coupled with the assumption that she was a man because she wasn't following the majority view.

I don't particularly care whether a man calls himself a feminist or not. I thought the T-shirts were naff whether on a man or a woman.

The list has some good points on it. The one I can't agree with is the "if a woman says something is sexist then it must be sexist" . She might think it is but it might be an unjustified overreaction or a diverting tactic.
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TBF, I think some may have read this post from airside

Do you think "what it's like to be a man" is the same for all men?

Of course not - no more than all women have the same experiences. But that doesn't mean we can't listen to each other, understand and support one another.

As meaning she was a man - the "we" could've meant "we men", "we women" (or "we people"!)

Either way, whilst "do the reading" was perhaps brusque (though airside herself quoted it without comment), it's way less harsh that a hundred posts I could point to on MN right now - and those aren't even in AIBU. I'm in a thread where the OP found out something worrying about one of her DD's friends on Saturday and she's being criticised for not having come back and updated by Monday evening with responses from the police, the schools involved and the parents. My response there has been to post saying "give the OP a minute here" not "oh, Chat, it's full of meanies"

And yet, again and again, an FWR poster who deviates for a minute from a super lovely personal style, isn't just asked individually to consider a rephrase, but is viewed as evidence of special FWR meanery about which Something Must Be Done, over and above the rest of MN, which goes on in its merry viperish way.

Odd, innit?

It was me that said the "do the reading" line. It was because despite several people explaining their point of view, and a link being made to a thread where lots of others did as well, airside was still asking why some people thought men shouldn't call themselves feminists. I suggested that she should read, think and make up her own mind about it- there was plenty of material available. It's not canon, after all. "Feminist" or "feminist ally". Personal choice.

There aware more important things to discuss!

Indeed Bertrand!

I was wondering how you (as a woman ) found point 34 about cultural output. Maybe we should keep a stickied list somewhere in FWR of films/plays directed by women, artists etc so we can post recommendations. I know at least one poster did a year of only reading books written by women (outside of work reading)

I think the point about believing women when something is sexist is a fair one. I mean it's self evident sometimes wrong ends of sticks might be grasped.

But if I can illustrate, before I engaged with feminism I had an argument with a friend of mine who was complaining about a whole spectrum of sexist behaviour at work.

I quite simply didn't want to believe it, and I was very dismissive of her. Although it was part of a chain of events that caused me to look into feminism, I don't particularly want to repeat my behaviour.

Point is I didn't take her seriously and listen properly. I did apologise, but when it comes to future interactions my aim is that if and when something gets raised any women feels taken seriously and listened to. I think that's the salient point there.

It's also worth pointing out, just if you play the odds if another hypothetical situation comes up what are the chances of systemic sexism and misogyny vs a genuine wrong end of the stick? I think our own answers to that question very much lay plainly how important feminism is or isn't to us personally.

Someone asked me up thread what my disagreement/not understanding of feminism entails. In the first instance I think feminism gets such a hammering in public debates I don't particularly want to add my voice to that cacophony, especially as I'm not sure I would actually be right, and the devil has enough advocates already. In terms of not understanding, my own lack of knowledge and insight is my responsibility that I can resolve on my own time.

Essentially as part of the listening and taking women seriously thing goes feminism gets a free pass in my mind until monumentally important things like violence towards women, gendered pay gaps and general inequality is tackled.

I'm working on writing fiction and I have found feminist analysis as far as I get it so far incredibly useful as a tool for improving characterising women which in turn stands to make better actual stories all round.

Yonic - I didn't really know what point 3 meant. If it means watching women's sport, reading female authors' reading articles written by female journalists and watching films/programmes made by female directors I guess the chicken and egg situation is that women get less exposure so it gets filtered out before it reaches the reader/viewer.

That said I wonder how much unconscious/conscious filtering also happens if/when it reaches the audience.

"My aim is that if and when something gets raised any women feels taken seriously and listened to. I think that's the salient point there."

I agree that's the salient point, similar to the We Believe You campaign as I mentioned upthread.

I think 25 stuck out for me as they humanise women for men, rather then being seen as something on a scale of shagability queue the bitter 'friendzone' dialogues/memes etc. PUA etc try to reinforce that you can have any women etc

As a woman the point about it must be sexist ' cos I say it is is the one of 3 I dislike most. It has an air of stamps foot about it- but I said so, it must be so.

On the ambiguity of airsides post it seemed clear to me "we" meant people.

I don't think it's the same at all. The correct analogy for me is there are false claims of burglary / insurance fraud but people generally take the claims at face value so why not take the same view with rape. An allegation of a crime has been made.

I mentioned Camila Batmanghelidh -I don't know if she personally tried to claim sexism motivated the investigations but certain of her supporters did. It was not sexism.

for me, in my actual real life, the point that I should be supported should I suggest that something is sexist, is meaningless. It will just never arise. I will never, ever ever expect any good outcome at all if I suggest something is sexist and I just won't bother bringing it up.

If I get the the chance to support some other woman against sexism, I will do so without ever naming it, because doing so will fuck things up for her and my support will become tainted and worse than nothing.

If something negative happens to me because of sexism, I will try my best to get a better outcome by drawing on more general principles like rationality, best judgement, facts of the case etc etc because if I say "are you thinking I'm wrong about this because I am a woman?" I will definitely be considered to be an idiot.

It's a decent point. there is nothing wrong with the list. It's just not enough. Having men standing about nodding going " I would die for Riley" is just neither here nor there when the atmosphere in general is so toxic to speaking up about sexism that you just can't.

I lead a sheltered life and have nice colleagues, but the few times that I did point out that things are sexist I got all the usual replies - "it's probably cultural", "but you are the best person for the job", "ah but he's an old dinosaur", "but that happens to men too".

The one time it did matter seriously to me I did get it sorted while accusing almost everybody of being sexist ... But they would have helped me out while still refusing to admit to being sexist. because they are nice.

Lass, here's an example of the 'when women tell you something is sexist, believe them' being thoroughly Not Done by JAPAB on another current thread (re Charlotte Proudman):

Noblegiraffe: I think the test of this is: he might have complimented a male colleague on the quality of photography, but I don't think he would use the word "stunning" to describe a photo of a man. So....yup, sexist.

JAPAB: Presumably he is heterosexual and so is unlikely to have those sorts of aesthetic responses to men. But of course, we can only speculate on what we suspect he would or wouldn't do. Don't think there is sufficient evidence to support her responding accusations of sexism and misogyny. She perhaps should have just stuck to calling it inappropriate and offensive.

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I think this is the intent of the point - don't go around the houses to find a reason why something might not be sexist - start from the premise that the woman might just know what she's talking about, listen to what she says and then judge it fairly.

It's the starting point of Equality and Diversity training. Personally, I didn't think that was a particularly controversial statement.