Ways men can support feminism...

[BertrandRussell]

I thought this was interesting, and posted it on Chat, but sadly only got two responses, so I thought I'd try here!

I thought the list started off quite well but towards the end was a bit dodgy. I especially have issues with points 29 and 31. With 31 if you are abusive to women after taking drugs or alcohol you need to check your attitudes. Drugs and alcohol don't make someone abusive. They may exacerbate existing abusive attitudes but the underlying problem was always there.

And with 29 women don't need protection by men, they need protection from men. It really positions men as the hero of the piece.

I liked point 33 but disagreed with 35 - saying "feminist ally" is not mealy mouthed but is usually a considered position after listening to the arguments for this.

Oh I missed the explanation for 35. Yes agreed Yonic.

Feminist ally is exactly how men should be framing themselves.

I skim read your post in chat, Bertrand, but when I went back I couldn't find it. It's an interesting article. That first picture though - 'Hey girl - let's smash patriarchy!'

Girl?!?

The whole area of men getting involved with feminism is a minefield though. It's a pity there wasn't more interest in Chat. It's easier to have a discussion outside of FWR.

The list started well but then repeated itself.

Self-identify as a feminist - I don't recall you ever reached a concensus on here whether a man could call himself a feminist.

When a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her - even if what she is saying is nonsense? It is possible for a woman to be wrong.

If you have a tendency to behave inappropriately toward women when you are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, do not consume drugs or alcohol - as opposed to dealing with why you behave like this? And then not doing it, drunk or sober?

When a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her - even if what she is saying is nonsense? It is possible for a woman to be wrong.

Lass, I think the point of this is that the best person to judge if something is sexist is the person it's happening to not the person it will never happen to. It's similar to We Believe You - which doesn't say that no false accusations are ever made but that the starting point should be believing the woman.

"Self-identify as a feminist - I don't recall you ever reached a concensus on here whether a man could call himself a feminist."

Well, we aren't the only feminists in the world!

Still, lot of good points on the list.

Lass, I think the point of this is that the best person to judge if something is sexist is the person it's happening to not the person it will never happen to.

I'm sure you do. I don't think agreeing with that person when she is completely wrong is helpful. I do know someone who at one point was pursuing 3 separate sex discrimination claims at industrial tribunals, not one of which was successful.

I also know someone who when dismissed because of very real performance issues tried to claim she had been sexually harassed and had been the victim of sexism. So no I don't think she was the best person to judge it.

The list had some good points but needed editing. It was strained to breaking point to get to 35.

Mmm hmm - did you read the second sentence of my post, lass?

Again, if you want to make this a dull contest of semantics, I'll hide this thread too.

The starting point of believing the second woman I referred to was immediately to discredit someone else who did not deserve it.

Or another example - there have been posters defending Camila Batmanghelid on the basis the allegations made against her are due to sexism. No they aren't.

"34. Get in the habit of treating your maleness as an unearned privilege that you have to actively work to cede rather than femaleness being an unearned disadvantage that women have to work to overcome."

I particularly liked this one- and the one about making woman friends.

I agree it's wordy, and I also prefer "feminist ally" but it's thought provoking.

When a woman tells you something is sexist, believe her.

This is interesting. Very often I don't even say something is sexist when it bloody is - because you spend the rest of your fucking time defending it. So fucking tedious. The fact that you even have to think "should I say this is sexist or not" and "how do I construct a fucking PhD thesis to back up my comment that this is sexist" makes it sexist because this disproportionately affects women and takes up so much of their energy. The person who makes the sexist comment or created the sexist situation probably doesn't even give it a second thought. Just look at people saying they hate being catcalled. "But it's a complement." "Some women like it." "Well, I miss it." "Humourless feminist" etc etc.

What do people think feminism is that men can't be feminists?

I'll find you a link, airside. But to be clear - it's not whether men can hold feminist beliefs, just whether the right word for them is 'feminists' or 'feminist allies' - the latter recognises that female feminists have lived experiences as women (street harassment, pregnancy or the prevention thereof etc) that men haven't.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2251312-Can-men-be-feminists

Men can hold feminist views- the debate is about whether the right word for a man who holds feminist views is "feminist" or "feminist ally"

I can wholly support racial equality and stand beside black people against racism- but I can't call myself black. I can be a LGBT rights activist, but as a straight woman..........Does that make sense?

You wouldn't be black any more than I would be a woman. But the label 'anti-racist' can be ascribed to anyone who holds views that are such. By the same token, the label 'feminist' could be ascribed to anyone who holds feminist views.

I think feminists want to keep men from muscling in on their turf, given that we trample over every other blade of grass in society, so to speak. I don't think their is any harm in that - it's your show. I just wish you would come out and say it if that is how you feel.

" I just wish you would come out and say it if that is how you feel."

The thing is... that's like saying 'I wish Labour voters would just come out and say they support the abolition of city-based cycle paths if that's how they feel'

'Feminists' are not a collective any more than any other political group; probably even less so than other political groups as there is no actual party other than the newly formed WEP which by no means speaks for all feminists.

I have a vague preference for feminist ally over feminist but am not that bothered by it. Others feel strongly one way or the other. Whaddya know - we are not the Borg!

" just wish you would come out and say it if that is how you feel."

That's not how I feel.
hth

Let me rephrase then. There is no harm in individual feminists saying that men should stay on the sidelines of feminism. The English use of the word 'you' can be confusing. I meant the individual, rather than the collective.

I still don't get the analogy of trying to call yourself black though.

Who is saying men should stay on the sidelines of feminism?

I know you weren't directing your comments at me directly. But I though I'd be the first for your tally chart!