Ways men can support feminism...

[BertrandRussell]

I thought this was interesting, and posted it on Chat, but sadly only got two responses, so I thought I'd try here!

Like that, Bertrand.

Airside, does it particularly matter to you if men are called feminist allies or feminists?

And, second question, do you not think that some of your experiences as a woman have more in common with other women than other men? Whether that's menstruation, pregnancy, street harassment, early child care or whatever?

Airside- do the reading, do the thinking, walk the walk and then decide for yourself
I did. I think men can be feminists. I was asking why other people disagree.

Okay, so I don't understand point 34. So, if I was to treat everybody as an equal regardless of gender, where would the shortfall be with me as an individual ceding my privilege?

If I am acknowledging that your female-ness makes not a jot of difference to how good you are at your job, how much you should be paid, how I should talk and listen to you, how much respect, kindness and good manners I should pay you - what is there still to do to cede my privilege? And by extension, if men across society did all those things, what would there still be left to do?

My understanding of the feminist concept of male privilege is that all you do to receive it be be born a man. If I and my fellow men ignore male-ness, where is the shortfall? This seems to be what I am missing re point 34.

Do you acknowledge that it's not currently the case for your fellow male, even if it's what you do? And if that's so, that at one or several points in your life, you had an unfair professional advantage because of it?

How does that make you feel?

Fair enough. Yonic linked to a whole thread which had lots of discussion about it.

Shall we move on?

Sorry, that was to airside. And I think we have!

Airside, I think "ally" acknowledges that men cannot be primary in identifying the issues of women's liberation because they are not the suppressed class. They can support, lend their shoulder to the plough, in some cases have more impact than women (because patriarchy) but they do not live the issues so they are one step removed.

Does that help?

X post!

In fact I'm going with that - men can lend their shoulder to the plough, women need to say where the plough should go.

Yonic Yes, I think it does matter. Limiting what you can and can't be based on whether you have tits or a penis seems a little counter-productive in the circumstances.

I'm interested in the things you choose as common experiences but I think it's a distraction from that central point - why does someone have to have experienced being a woman to be a feminist?

I have various things in common with people of different genders. I'm not sure why menstruation or street harrassment should be particularly binding.

"Limiting what you can and can't be based on whether you have tits or a penis seems a little counter-productive in the circumstances."

Hahahahahahaha.

Hence feminism.

Do you acknowledge that it's not currently the case for your fellow male, even if it's what you do? Yes, you read about it all the time on here.

And if that's so, that at one or several points in your life, you had an unfair professional advantage because of it? There aren't many women in my line of work. I suppose that lack of women could display discrimination, as there is no obvious reason for it.

How does that make you feel? It's odd, because I have had as many women managers as men. And they have been both the best and worst bosses. You don't need to do my job to work in positions more senior than mine. And I have no problem with that. I was never career-orientated.

Airside

The root causes of sexism come from the biological differences of men and women. Wanting to control the line of reproduction, for one.

If I picked "being a nurse" and "liking baking" as my commonalities, I would be picking gender stereotypes. I am picking examples that are based on biology and on strong socialisation (far fewer women street harass men, for example)

Calling men feminist allies rather than feminists (and I repeat that I am personally only a little pro the distinction) acknowledges that the main sufferers of sexism are women as a class and the main perpetrators of sexism are men as a class. If any feminist, ally, supporter, whatever, doesn't think this is the case, feminism probably isn't the movement for them.

"How does that make you feel?"

By this, I meant "how do you feel about the fact that your sex almost certainly contributed unfairly to you reaching your current position" - whether that was in school, university, work, networking etc?

The point of 34 is that, as an individual man, you can't assume your fellow male is treating women equally, even if you are. Quite possibly, your fellow women is treating men more favourably too - both women and men tend to vote for a male candidate, IIRC.

And, as I think you are acknowledging this is true, the logical outcome of that is that you acquired privilege. Point 34 is saying "acknowledge that" not "if you personally are an equalist, move along, nothing to see"

"I have various things in common with people of different genders. "

Well, sure. But feminism is about women as a class - so within feminism, the commonalities are those that apply to women. In other social movements, the commonalities might be about class, or sexuality, or disability, or race.

"Calling men feminist allies rather than feminists (and I repeat that I am personally only a little pro the distinction) acknowledges that the main sufferers of sexism are women as a class and the main perpetrators of sexism are men as a class." Does it? Or does it just suggest there's a hierarchy of how feminist you can be which is based on how much you menstruate?

" Or does it just suggest there's a hierarchy of how feminist you can be which is based on how much you menstruate?"

Nope. I don't think it suggests that at all.

Err, nope.

Airside, if you were electing a governing body of world feminism, do you think it should be equally balanced between men and women?

Airside is a woman, I think?