Ways men can support feminism...

[BertrandRussell]

I thought this was interesting, and posted it on Chat, but sadly only got two responses, so I thought I'd try here!

If a woman can subjectively decide something is sexist (with no objective analysis required) perhaps men can subjectively call themselves feminists (and wear their appropriately sloganed t-shirts)

I don't think the racism analogy works. A person is "racist" or "anti-racist".

Thanks for the link, Yonicscrewdriver.

I don't think the racism analogy works either.

Nor the idea that people have so little intelligence and empathy that they cannot understand another person's point of view without experiencing it.

A person is "racist" or "anti-racist".

If only life was so simple! Have you never been in a situation where people say things that are "nice" but makes you uncomfortable because of your ethnicity? But it's not quite clear cut "racist"?

I would not presume to say that I know what it's like to be a man.........

Do you think "what it's like to be a man" is the same for all men?

Of course not - no more than all women have the same experiences. But that doesn't mean we can't listen to each other, understand and support one another.

I'm sorry, airside. I don't understand your point.

If we accept that some feminists have a problem with men referring to themselves as feminists - as opposed to ally, supporter etc. -what are those problems?

One already mentioned is the lack of experience of what it is to be a woman. Are there others?

Do you have any thoughts about the points in my original post?

Were you asking me Bertrand?

Overall I liked the article, because it poses a lot of good points. There's a couple I don't agree with;

10. I'd never force my son - or anyone - to have a vaccine. I'd make him aware and tell him to read up and make his own mind up.

11. I don't have heroes and role models. Putting people on a pedestal isn't something I think any of us should do.

And a few others are along the lines of 'Do this....but not too much, or too little'. A lot of good stuff in there though. 'Treat women as you would like to be treated yourself' sums a lot of it up.

Oh, and 35 obviously. I still don't know whether a man calling himself a feminist makes any sense, or any difference.

I just find it interesting that we are talking about men's right to call themselves feminists, rather than what they could or should be doing to support feminism.

For example ""34. Get in the habit of treating your maleness as an unearned privilege that you have to actively work to cede rather than femaleness being an unearned disadvantage that women have to work to overcome."

I really wouldn't want to be married to anyone who called himself a feminist. We are equal partners and love each other.

Agreed. I suppose it should be 1/35th of the total conversation. And I wasn't approaching it as a 'right' - like you, I really don't care. My point of view was whether it would be welcome.

Point 34 - 'treat everyone equally, regardless of gender.'

Derxa, they seem to be two completely unrelated sentences! What do you mean?

Yops, that's not what point 34 means.

Do you disagree with the point 34 as outlined then, Yops? Because your rephrasing makes it entirely different.

On #20, I don't think it's about putting people on pedestal. I'm not quite sure if I can explain this, but if you look around you, you see that great scientists/explorers/inventors/reformers are men. It is about looking past this all prevailing attempt at erasing women's contribution and actively saying that, yes, there are great scientists/explorers/inventors/reformers who are women. It is about normalising women's achievement.

That's what I think.

My DC has the magazine Aquila, and in it, they always try to give a balanced exposure. It is about that - so that it is normal to see women in public space, women in halls of fame, so that when people talk about a great achiever one does not automatically think it is a man.

"If we accept that some feminists have a problem with men referring to themselves as feminists - as opposed to ally, supporter etc. -what are those problems?

One already mentioned is the lack of experience of what it is to be a woman. Are there others?"

One big one: that often women have to expend a lot of time and energy to explain what feminism is about, instead of men looking it up and doing some thinking for themselves.

I think if men do the reading, do the thinking, then walk the walk they can call themselves feminists. But it's sometimes bloody hard to be a feminist as a woman- it would be doubly hard as a man. And if they think they can, for example, rephrase point 34 to mean "treat everyone equally, regardless of gender" then I don't think they can call themselves feminists.

Yops, I linked a previous discussion on men/feminism for airside - that could help with your question about what the issues are with ally/supporter/male feminist.

Bertrand, I was querying if one needs actual experience of a being a woman to be a feminist and, if so, why that is?

Airside- do the reading, do the thinking, walk the walk and then decide for yourself.

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Agree with BertrandRussell's post of Sun 06-Sep-15 17:58:33. It is bloody hard to be a feminist as a woman. for us all.