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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

587 replies

Garrick · 31/08/2015 00:28

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/im-girl-meet-twin-boy-6348318?

Summary: Twins Alfie and Logan, 4yo, are both boys. Logan has insisted on wearing girly clothes, doing girly things, and that he is a girl since the age of two. His mother, who sounds brilliant, reports him wishing his willy would fall off.

I'm somewhat flummoxed. When I were a lass, little boys like this were described as camp (behind their fathers' backs) and, as far as I know, mostly grew up to be camp and fulfilled their rightful destinies. Rather like Ugly Betty's brother.

But this is what some transwomen say they felt like as children, isn't it? And I have rubbished it because I find it hard to believe in gender as an innate feeling. I'm not sure whether I think little Logan proves me wrong Confused

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WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 01/09/2015 23:11

Got to go to sleep now, toddler has tonsillitis and actually looks like he might sleep well now he's medicated.

jennyorangeberry · 01/09/2015 23:29

Giving birth isn't a gender stereotype, but the idea that motherhood is integral to being a woman very definitely is.

I think it is extraordinary that you can't define what a woman is, and yet you keep mentioning things that are very much connected to having an adult female body - hysterectomy, birth, breasts.

You seem to be saying all of these other women think bring a woman is to do with having a female body but you don't think that is what being a woman is - those are just individual, personal, internal experiences as far as you're concerned.

I don't think it is odd at all to feel that way after a hysterectomy if you had children or wanted them but couldn't have them.

So if all those experiences of having a female body aren't what being a woman is, what is a woman?!

FloraFox · 01/09/2015 23:42

A woman is an adult human female. In a sexually dimorphic species, the female of the species has the body type which is potentially (if functioning) capable of producing eggs and bearing children.

This has nothing to do with motherhood being integral to the life of any particular woman although in most cultures the life experiences are shaped to greater or lesser extents by her ability or inability to bear children.

Her personality and traits are not determined by her ability or inability to bear children.

jennyorangeberry · 01/09/2015 23:52

And that seems very obvious and straightforward to me FloraFox.

I don't see people needing to go into these huge deliberations to explain what a deaf person is, or what a pet owner is, or an Italian, or a child.

Garrick · 02/09/2015 00:49

What Flora just gave is an actual definition of what a woman is, jenny.

Yet now we are being told a woman is someone who says they are a woman, regardless of which kind of gonads they have and their chromosomes.

The little boy in my story is seen as a child who may become a woman.

People who are unclear about what makes a woman are not the women on this thread. They are people who dispute the simple definition, saying instead that being a woman is a feeling, a manner of behaviour, a style of dress and so on.

^ again - the difference between sex and gender.

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Garrick · 02/09/2015 00:55

On quite a big tangent, Bertie, and in recognition of your mother - I was deeply shocked to learn I had PCOS. It's so ingrained in most of us that we will have children - or, at least, that we'll choose whether to - and there's something deeper, too. One's sense of 'being a woman' is entwined with reproductive capacity, whether or not we've finished with it or don't want to use it.

Not every woman who finds out she's a reproductive anomaly goes through this shock, but I know very many do. You come to terms with it, though :) Now you've mentioned it, it is very pertinent to questions of bodily identity ... albeit in a different way.

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Italiangreyhound · 02/09/2015 02:27

What an interesting thread. Flora as always spot on.

I have experienced fertility issues and felt very frustrated and perhaps angry that my body failed me. I don't think I felt less of a woman (because I was not) and certainly never felt like a male! I can totally see why women feel sad at the loss of the uterus. Whether they were planning on using it (again) or not. This is all biology and is not to do with gender or gender identity which is simply constructed around what society thinks females or males should be like IMHO.

On most days I don't buy into it, but I do sometimes wonder where all this comes from. One thing that I find interesting is that I like the company of women, I feel safe with them, I am straight so it is not a sexual thing, it is just I like being amongst my own sex. Can that be explained by sex/biological rather than any kind of 'gender identity' or is it to some extent about being socialised together?

Although gender is, I think, constructed, it is still real in that we all know what we mean by it, except when people bend the rules! Someone asked me to define masculine and I said something like not a flowery shirt! Then saw the hottest' most masculine man in a flowery shirt. What does it all mean!?

Plus what it means to be masculine or feminine now varies a lot from what it meant in the past, or what it means in other geographical locations.

Italiangreyhound · 02/09/2015 02:33

I think the bigger question, which we as a society are not asking, is what is going on in the brains of all these people who identify as trans. IMHO I think lots of different things may well be going on but because we are all expected to buy into the same trans narrative, 'have always felt like a girl' etc, then we never get to the bottom of it. I met a trans woman recently who only 'knew/felt' she was a woman in her 50s. Not everyone has the same story. Some hate their genitals, and cannot wait to have them removed, others are happy to live alongside them - a woman-identity but to keep the penis. As far as trans men go it seems quite possible not to have surgery but to use testosterone and look very masculine outwardly (no idea about under the clothes) but in terms of facial hair, muscles etc. I think it is important to recognise not everyone is trans for the same reasons.

I don't want to deny anyone's experiences but I was pretty pissed off when a trans women viewed me with suspicion because I did not want to be called 'cis'! I was calling her what she wanted to be called but somehow that did not extend to me!

My own journey is trying to understand trans issues and I want to be a friend and ally to trans people but I am very frustrated by the way some trans women are trying to get into some female only spaces and define how females can talk about things relating to females.

Trying to tread this path is very hard and frustrating at times. My encounter with that one trans woman was a bit like 'agree with me or I can't talk to you.' But I'm also not a radical feminist and I expect would disagree with a few rad fems too!

I hope there is a middle path between all these competing 'needs'!

Night all.

jsommer7345 · 02/09/2015 02:36

It isn't the "wrong" gender. It just doesn't match his internal gender. This makes him different than most boys... hence the idea of "wrong" coming up. Most people are not born this way, and thus it is easy to discriminate with wrongness of being who we are.

WombOfOnesOwn · 02/09/2015 04:04

Garrick, you know PCOS doesn't mean you can't have children, right? I got my diagnosis at 15 and also thought it meant that. It does make it harder, but in the end, it turned out a VERY inexpensive over the counter B-vitamin (inositol) makes many PCOS women's menstrual regulation and ovulation normal again--it's been well-studied in a lot of endocrinological journals and has few side effects.

Six months after starting it, my periods had been 100% regular every month...and then dried up again. And it turned out I was pregnantI'm now 15 weeks along with my son. Even if you've got a beard, even if your PCOS spikes your testosterone crazy high, it's quite possibleif it's a part of the journey you imagine for yourself, don't give it up because of this!

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 02/09/2015 06:49

It's been discussed before but no I don't think there is a single simple definition of "woman" that works for everyone (and that's even before we consider transwomen).

As I mentioned before the Olympics has issues coming up with a straightforward test / criteria for what is a woman. And that's just biology, they don't care about what is going on in your head.

This guardian article goes into the sex is not binary stuff and talks about sport

www.theguardian.com/science/the-h-word/2015/feb/19/nature-sex-redefined-we-have-never-been-binary#img-1

This article in nature is basically the same stuff but more sciencey

www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 02/09/2015 06:54

jenny

Giving birth isn't a gender stereotype, but the idea that motherhood is integral to being a woman very definitely is

It sounds like we agree on this. That's basically what I was saying. If you have two women one has given birth and is a mother, the another has not.
What I was trying to say, albeit very clumsily, is that I would expect both of these woman to "identify as woman" feel like women, have no gender conflict etc.

womb congrats on your pregnancy, hope you are having a healthy happy one.

NiNoKuni · 02/09/2015 07:27

Womb I second inositol, and so does my 11 week old son Smile

When - I don't have no gender conflict. I have no sex conflict. It's that good old 'cis' problem again. I defiantly reject all gender expectations and identities that society wants to enforce upon me as a female. Feminists (NAFALT) do have gender conflict, because gender is oppressive. As for defining what a woman is - I thinnk Flora has it nailed down. How do you personally know you're a woman?

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 02/09/2015 07:36

Yes a lot of people have gender conflict because society expects certain things from women and men.

One man I know is quite conflicted at the moment because he is a sahd (made redundant).
He takes great pains to explain why it makes sense to stay at home and how he plans to get to work, everything I speak to him it gets brought up, this doesn't tend to happen with the sahms I know.

I think we are talking at cross purposes, when I say gender identity in not talking about gender stereotypes.

FloraFox · 02/09/2015 07:52

The research in Nature does not indicate that a person with a penis is ever a female. The obvious conclusions are:

  1. There is a wider range of intersex conditions than previously known; or
  1. Factors which we previously thought were indicators of sex, are not reliable indicators.

The fact that a woman was pregnant when she discovered she was pregnant, suggest she is not intersex. She has demonstrated that she produces eggs and has borne a child. In a sexually dimorphic species, that is the distinction between male and female.

The research does not change this fact:

Penis = male or intersex =/= female

Vagina = female or intersex =/= male

On the point of the Olympics, i would be interested to know whether they were ever asked to test if a competitor in the male categories was a woman. I doubt the committee was asked to test Bruce Jenner in 1976. I don't the the Olypics tests indicate that we don't know what a woman is.

NiNoKuni · 02/09/2015 07:52

How can you have a gender identity without recourse to gender stereotypes or biology?

I know I'm a woman because I'm an adult human female. Breasts, vagina, ovaries, uterus, got the lot. It doesn't, for me, go much beyond that. Like most people, I have a mix of traditionally masculine and feminine traits, abilities and interests. So biology aside since we're talking trans, where does 'woman' or gender identity come from? What does it mean?

People were asking me when I was going back to work before I even had the baby! It doesn't half make you defensive on occasion.

shovetheholly · 02/09/2015 08:26

jenny said "I disagree that what pain means is subjective. What pain is, what we mean when we tell each other that we are experiencing pain, when we set out to inflict pain, what that means has an explicit meaning that is not subjective. We all mean the same thing. It is universal. Describing the level of pain you are in is subjective, but what the word pain means is not."

I think this raises an interesting issue, and I think it is based around a common confusion between the word 'subjective' and the concept of something as socially or culturally constructed. I am not sure where this confusion comes from but it is very, very common. I have heard it repeated by academics all over the place.

If we go back to the seventeenth century and to Descartes, we can see the foundations of what has become a very modern theory of mind. It's based on a central doubt: what if my sensory perceptions aren't accurate? What if they don't 'reflect' a world out there around me, but are in fact illusory? We all have dreams - sometimes when we are ill or have taken drugs, we hallucinate things that aren't there. Who's to say that this isn't happening all the time? How do we KNOW that what we perceive as reality is 'really' there?

Descartes thought about this and said 'Aha! But there is one thing I cannot doubt - and that is that I am sitting here and thinking! I have absolute certainty about that!' (Cogito ergo sum). And a theory of mind was born which pictured the mind as something inner and the world as something outer, and then worried about how we connect the two to have certainty in our knowledge. Note that the idea of a perceiving 'subject' is changed by this: 'subjective' here is the way that the mind turns in on itself, and cannot be certain of things empirically 'out there'.

Now if you have this Cartesian (Descartesean) view, pain is something that we know 'internally' - it is, by nature, a private experience. We know it, apparently, by identifying it within ourselves and isolating it. ('Oh, this sensation in my finger, let me call that pain' and then when I have a pain in my foot 'Oh, let me check back in my memory bank - yes, this feels like pain too'). We build a kind of 'pain sample' to which we refer ourselves, and we point to it internally, we refer to it when we are talking about feelings of hurt. The problem is: how do I know that my pain sample is the same as your pain sample? How do we know that we are 'really' experiencing the same thing?

Now I'm going to skip forward through 200 years of pretty important history in which these ideas are challenged in various ways to the mid C20. Along comes Ludwig Wittgenstein. And he says 'What a load of bollocks, Descartes!'. And he enters into a long demolition of this position, of which I am only giving you a faint-hearted summary here (I seriously, seriously recommend reading it for yourself - it is in the Philosophical Investigations, which is a beautiful and wonderful book of thinking that is utterly, utterly therapeutic to read). Anyway, Wittgenstein starts by looking at the way we act around pain and he disagrees with Descartes. At no point, he says, when we are in agony do we say 'Excuse me for a second while I check my current sensation against my mental database to see whether I can call this 'pain' or not'. The mere fact of using the word 'pain' slots us into a shared experience of pain.

In other words, pain behaviour and language is conventional, and a matter of use, and use is public and not private. We don't have private languages: the very concept of meaning is something social. In understanding pain, we insert ourselves into a set of social and cultural conventions about pain: it is not simply a private matter. Think about the word 'Ouch!'. It's a pretty weird word, right? There is no reason why we should say 'ouch' when we burn a finger, rather than 'oimoi' or 'aiiiieeeeee'? Yet we use it in place of crying of screaming when we are in pain. For Wittgenstein, the crucial thing is that we DO talk about pain and pain behaviour in this social way, without there being an issue about checking my pain against yours - not only do we not need to look within for verification, but we are already talking about the same thing. There is no 'essence' or 'internal definition' of pain - it is something that is already part of the world. (This is part of a bigger and more brilliant attack on the book between the mind/world dualism that Descartes set up).

The post-structuralists would take this position further, arguing that all of our understanding happens in socio-cultural frameworks that are very much 'within' society and that are always therefore political. This does NOT mean that they are 'subjective' in the sense that Descartes uses the word, to mean a kind of solipsism. In fact they are 'objective' in the sense of being outside of the subject, in the culture. But they are not 'objective' in the way that word has come to describe some kind of scientific truth that is supposed to be transcendentally and universally true - they are culturally specific and relative.

So what does this mean for gender? Well, we can see it in a Wittgensteinean kind of a way, as something that is inevitably social - or we can go further and see it in a post-structuralist way as something that is inevitably social and political. Either way, the idea that it can be described as either simply 'subjective' or simply 'objective' needs to be exchanged for a more sophisticated series of concepts!

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 02/09/2015 08:52

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 02/09/2015 08:53

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shovetheholly · 02/09/2015 08:56

high fives Buffy

EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 02/09/2015 09:03

Thanks, Buffy. I might need to read it again in my lunch break, but yes it does make sense.

Deianira · 02/09/2015 09:15

I think we are talking at cross purposes, when I say gender identity in not talking about gender stereotypes.

The problem with this distinction is that, to massively oversimplify, a gender-critical feminist would argue that there is no such thing as gender without gender stereotypes. That is to say - if gender is a socially constructed thing which people perform/do/are thought to be doing, then it's impossible to also separate out some sort of idea of innate gender identity and talk about that - all this would mean is that this is the set of social assumptions or ideas which you've been consciously (and unconsciously) choosing to match up with in order to 'do' a particular gender.

(Again, I stress that this is a huge oversimplification - I certainly don't want to suggest that when people do/perform gender it's a conscious choice to act in a particular way, but for now this seems to be the most sensible way to work out where the cross-purposes are coming in!)

This is why people are asking how it is possible to 'feel like a woman' (what you are calling 'gender identity'), without recourse to such stereotypes, unless it means to recognise one's biological sex. Because if gender is entirely about social expectations, particular conventions etc., if you took those away (and they had never existed) then you wouldn't have a 'feeling' which decided which set of expectations you matched up to (or, indeed, more importantly, nor would society/individuals in society be judging you against those expectations, when you chose to accept/reject them as you went about your life), so it would become a meaningless concept.

I hope that's at least mostly clear! Thanks also to Buffy and shovetheholly for your two posts - they are both very helpful!

Garrick · 02/09/2015 09:45

Womb and NiNo - I was diagnosed in my mid-thirties, 25 years ago! There was very little research on it and I was part of a pilot study. I didn't know about inositol and, since the syndrome doesn't go away with surgery or age, am about to buy some. Thanks!

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0dfod · 02/09/2015 10:15

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dementedDementor · 02/09/2015 10:30

Bringing it back to gender, there are theories that reality and knowledge has been interpreted using structures and ideas devised by men, that justify men as the ones who get to structure and interpret reality, to benefit themselves

Could you say that science is viewed as the most powerful sort of knowledge because it has traditionally been performed by men (particularly white men in more recent times)?