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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ms, Mrs,Miss

520 replies

LookAtMeGo · 05/08/2015 22:05

Apologies in advance, as I'm sure it has been done to death. But today I realised the truth of why I refer to myself as Mrs even though I'm divorced. My mum is divorced and told me as a child in response to me asking why she is still Mrs that it is so nobody judges her and she looks respectable (not her actual words, but that's what I got from the convo at the age of about ten)

Even as a highly educated professional, I still wanted to hold on to the title post-divorce and I feel pretty... I don't know... angry? Upset? Ashamed? I really don't know. All I know is I don't feel good, and I shall be Ms from now on.

Any thoughts? Is there something else I should be doing?

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YonicScrewdriver · 07/08/2015 18:13

Judging by responses on this and other threads, I'd guess maybe 5% of uk MNers think the title Ms was once, if not now, used to indicate a divorcee.

Not sure why you are saying "oh it's women saying this" lass unless you are simultaneously posting on this topic on a site with 98% male posters...

LookAtMeGo · 07/08/2015 18:32

If it is so trivial and you 'choose your battles', why do you keep coming back here to post? I think you have more posts on this thread than I do, and I started it!Confused

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Mehitabel6 · 07/08/2015 19:05

The name is trivial.
Being told what I have to do, and what I have to think, by other women isn't trivial.

LassUnparalleled · 07/08/2015 19:42

Is this only an issue in UK English speaking countries?

It's definitely not an issue in French, German and Dutch.

Nobody is telling you what to do or think. I don't understand why you don't see this apparent choice is actually an imposition on women. I don't like the sound of Mrs but if Mrs just meant any woman over the age of 16 or 18 in the same way as Mr means any adult male , then fine.

alexpolistigers · 07/08/2015 19:44

I am so glad I live in a place where this is a non-issue.

All adult women - one available title.

All adult men - one available title.

Academic and professional qualifications used only in work/ expertise context

Even if you are addressing someone with their position (eg minister, PM, doctor), you would still preface it with the ordinary title, like saying Ms Minister, Ms Doctor.

On those rare occasions when I get letters from the UK, titles can be anything. I have been Mr, despite my very feminine first name. I ignore it.

alexpolistigers · 07/08/2015 19:46

Lass having been in a number of other European countries, I can tell you that it seems to be a problem only in the UK.

Admittedly, I haven't been everywhere on earth, but this is the only place I have ever heard of it being a problem.

Mehitabel6 · 07/08/2015 19:54

It really isn't a problem. You choose what you want. If you don't like Mrs or Miss you have Ms. As long as you can choose it is fine.

EBearhug · 07/08/2015 20:03

Mrs can be pronounced easily by all - unlike Ms - which can sound dreadful.

Only because we've learnt it. While English orthography is quite often confusing, it does have rules and usually expects to have at least one vowel. If you're not a native English speaker, how do you know it's not pronounced "emmarress" or "muuhrs" or something? It's not harder learning how to say Ms as "muhzz" or "mihzz", and there are plenty of English accents, so you're bound to get a bit of variation, anyway.

When I was at school in the early '80s, we had a new teacher who was Ms Brown (well, she actually had a different surname, but she was definitely Ms.) There was quite a lot of speculation among our parents about whether she was divorced, because she was Ms - I was about the age where I was only learning there was any such thing as divorce in the first place. I have no idea to this day whether she was divorced or not. And all of us learnt quite quickly that she was Ms, and not Miss or Mrs, because she was quick to correct anyone who didn't get it right. I imagine she's still doing it to this day (unless she's retired), as there are some people to whom every female teacher is Miss, whatever they've been told.

It's not trivial, though - of course they shouldn't, but people do judge you on whether you're Miss, Mrs or Ms - this thread (and many previous similar ones) are proof of that. People will be making assumptions about you being married, or divorced or not being able to find a husband, or being a mad feminist lesbian. Most of the assumptions are going to be wrong, and almost always irrelevant, but they still happen. Yet if you have correspondence from Mr Smith, all you're going to know is that he's a man. You're not going to be able to make assumptions about whether he's married, single, divorced, straight, gay or anything else, because men just don't have that history of the title Mr having particular associations, because there's not the same history of men's social status being dependent on someone else (another man) in the way that women's have been. When I was clearing my parents' house, I came across a tax return form for about 1973 in my father's desk - it included a section for dependent adult daughters. That's round about the same time that the last marriage bars were abolished (in the civil service) for working women. Such freedoms were hard won and could be depressingly easily lost. Workers' rights have been diminished quite a bit in recent years.

(My mother, who was sometimes a bit archaic in some ways, would address letters to friends as J. Smith, esq, and only use Mr J Smith on business correspondence, because the Mr indicated tradesmen. She was born in the 1940s, not the 1840s... But I'm trying to point out that there did used to be some distinctions in male titles.)

alexpolistigers · 07/08/2015 20:09

I agree, Ebearhug that it wouldn't take much for us all to get used to Ms. It could easily be pronounced Mistress, if we so chose. After all, Mr is pronounced Mister.

Very good points about the recent past.

On the issue of choice, since Mehitabel has brought it up, then I choose to be Dr.

Dr Alex Polistigers
Doctor Alex

It has quite a nice ring to it. And no one can tell anything about my marital status, or indeed my gender. I like it.

LookAtMeGo · 07/08/2015 20:41

It clearly isn't about choice though. It's different for men and women so of course it is sexist. Depressing to have to point it out. Are you really a man?

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achieve6 · 07/08/2015 20:48

Mehitabel, the fact that you don't like the sound is trivial.

The issue of labelling women by marital status is not trivial, but you're saying you think it is?

WitchinScotland, why not use Ms?

I see the "Ms" as divorced as a total red herring,. I've had more temp jobs than hot dinners, in different types of place. All use "Ms" as a title unless someone makes it clear they have a preference. In one place I remember someone's payslip got changed to Miss from Ms. She was really annoyed and we all understood why. (She didn't have a go at anyone but got it corrected).

Mehitabel6 · 07/08/2015 21:08

You can choose Ms. No one is stopping you, it is quite normal. That doesn't seem enough for some people - they must choose for all women because they know best!

Iggi999 · 07/08/2015 21:09

Do you read the posts? I can't choose Ms without revealing things about myself that a man does not have to by simply being Mr.

LookAtMeGo · 07/08/2015 21:38

She's being annoyingly obtuse. I'm going to ignore because it's like trying to explain something to a child. Actually, that's an insult, because I'm sure my ten year old DS would grasp the point.

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LookAtMeGo · 07/08/2015 21:38

deliberately obtuse I meant.

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LookAtMeGo · 07/08/2015 21:42

'I couldn't care less if someone knows my marital status.' Or whatever she said. The prize for weirdest addition to a thread goes to Mehitabel.

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Mehitabel6 · 07/08/2015 22:04

That is precisely why I object to being told what to do - if you differ you have to be obtuse.
Ms tells you nothing about marital status.

BertrandRussell · 07/08/2015 22:10

Mehitabel, is the personal ever political for you?

Mehitabel6 · 07/08/2015 22:13

It depends.

However if you do wish to change someone's mind on a subject calling them 'obtuse' is not going to do it!

LookAtMeGo · 07/08/2015 22:15

I have no interest in changing your mind, because I get the feeling it's a lost cause.

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LookAtMeGo · 07/08/2015 22:17

Are you even a feminist?

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Mehitabel6 · 07/08/2015 22:21

That depends on what sort of feminist.
Anyway seeing as I am a lost cause I shall go- thankful that no one is going to attempt to change my mind. It was only being told what to think that was upsetting me.

LookAtMeGo · 07/08/2015 22:21

I'm all for intelligent debate, but your comments just don't even relate to what we're saying. You hate the sound of the word Ms, and you don't care what people think of your marital status. Ok, so I think that disqualifies you from the discussion. Goodbye.

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achieve6 · 07/08/2015 22:21

Mehitabel, you just wrote "Ms tells you nothing about marital status". Exactly! So why don't you wish to use it? Are you saying you would use a different word if you thought it sounded nicer?

I'm sorry if I am being slow but either I can't follow your argument or you just don't want to say explicitly how you feel.

Mehitabel6 · 07/08/2015 22:28

I shall have to go achieve6 it is pointless me saying yet again that I don't mind anyone knowing my marital status, it doesn't bother me - because this is being obtuse and deliberately missing the point and makes me not worth talking to.